ETG Podcast 22: Penelope Trunk Calls Bullshit On Me. BIG Wake Up Call
Sep
ETG Podcast: Episode 22
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
For those of you not familiar with Penelope Trunk, she is a very successful entrepreneur, blogger, and is the author of the book Brazen Careerist.
If you have read her blog, you know she is about as no nonsense a writer as they come. She has built a fantastic community of readers with her wit, humor, and writing style. And a little media attention didn’t hurt either….
As you can imagine with a high profile person like Penelope, it was pretty hard to pin her down for an interview. From my initial contact, it took us about 2 months to finally get something concrete on the calendar. I knew it would be worth the wait, but I had no idea just what I was getting into!
If you read Wednesday’s post, The Truth About Being Remarkable And Giving A Shit, then you are somewhat familiar with what transpired on this call.
I was expecting a regular interview and initially it started out that way. Then I asked the question that turned the interview around and turned my whole thought process about my blog around with it. I was not expecting the turn of events that happened, and was completely caught off guard.
Another Reality Check…
After I got off the phone, I called a friend of mine, Marcus Sheridan and told him what happened. I sent him the interview and asked for his honest opinion. Honestly, I thought he was going to tell me that Penelope was crazy.
Here’s what he had to say:
“I’ve listened to the recording and have put a lot of time thinking about how to respond to this, but I know you want me to be straight and real, so that’s what I’ll be, because I think you’re a heck of a guy.
Penelope is uncanny. She is direct, but she thin slices situations very well.
To be honest Steve, she is right. Her assessment is accurate. She kept drilling you for your goals, and she also picked up on the fact that your vision is very unclear.
Dude, do yourself a favor, and turn that interview into the turning point of your life. Take what she said, embrace it, chew on it, run with it, and be grateful she was willing to give it.
We all need to be talked to like that at times. All of us. And if we’re bothered by what others say, it’s usually because there is something within us that knows there was merit in the message.
I honestly did not disagree with anything she said.”
That email woke me up. I have a lot of respect for Marcus as an entrepreneur and as a person and what he said suddenly made so much sense.
Prior to this interview, I thought I knew the direction I was heading in. I thought I had goals. After the interview, I had to seriously reevaluate everything I am working towards and why.
The Interview
During the call, I felt like Penelope was personally attacking me and I was too in shock to take what she was saying for what it was worth. But looking back I realize that it was just what I needed. I’ve listened to this interview multiple times and realize that she did me a huge favor by calling bullshit on me.
I could easily write 3,000 words about this interview but I wouldn’t do it justice. I have also left it unedited (other than the intro) so you can get the full effect of the conversation.
Please listen to it and leave me a comment with your thoughts. Do you agree with what she is saying? Was she jumping to conclusions and judgements or were they just? I really want to hear your thoughts on this!
Randy Cantrell
Welcome to the world of helping people. Call it coaching or whatever you want, but this is real world conversation that many of us have every single work day as we try to help people move forward. Congrats on having the experience. Congrats more for sharing it.
Steve
Hey Randy,
As you could tell, I wasn’t all that thrilled with the call at the time, but it was a great experience. I mean, how many people get that kind of personal advice from Penelope?
Thanks for listening.
Randy Cantrell
I strongly suspect she did you more good than 1000 more readers would – but she’s right, you’ll get more readers/listeners interested in THIS conversation. Funny how that works. I’m cheering you on to do the heavy lifting though and not become distracted with whatever traffic this brings you because traffic comes and goes. Your life goes on. I wish you the best.
Steve
So true Randy. I never thought about how much traffic I would get from this. What I care about is getting feedback from people who care. And yes, this interview was worth far more than an influx of traffic!
Justine Garrett
Hi,
Really enjoyed the interview.
What is that book and test she mentioned that you should do?
Thanks
Steve
The Myers Briggs test. Is that what you’re referring to?
Sam Patwegar
I perfectly understand what you are going through.
1. You love your family and want to build a life around them – Is this your primary goal?.
2. Another goal that is deeply embedded in you is your desire to be your own boss.
I believe you are doing quite well for now by being open to all possibilities and treading cautiously – which is inline with your current condition.
There are millions out there with similar dreams and most of them are likely to find your blog interesting – This should take care of the traffic and success of your blog.
Continue exploring/sharing your journey,there will come a day when you will find yourself where you want to be.
Steve
Sam,
These are all excellemt observations. My family is #1 for me and ultimately my business will allow me the freedom to be with them when I choose. Not being able to see them enough is killing me. I am working 2 nights per week in addition to my full-time job and those are the days I don’t see them at all. Most people say that’s normal and everyone has to make sacrifices, but that’s not something I can accept.
And although my personality type tells me that I like routine and structure, I still thrive off of being my own boss. Having that autonomy is critical fo rmy happiness.
I feel like I’m doing well given my situation, but need more concrete pland and goals. I’m a huge dreamer and have often been accused of being just a pipe dreamer, but for me, I think what I eventually want WILL come to fruition.
Sam Patwegar
You allready have a goal, you need to figure out a method/methods of achieving those goals.
On a positive side I see two possibilities here:-
1. You will build a successful blog dicussing those methods – which should make for a very interesting read.
2. Either by trail and error or with someone guiding you (in case you are lucky), you will eventually discover the best way/ways of generating your desired level of income.
There are not many bloggers who are willing to do what you are doing – that sets you apart.
I wish you good luck and great success.
Justin | Mazzastick
Hey Steve,
I have been at both the giving and receiving end of this process. No one likes being called out but as you already know it is exactly what we need to hear.
I am going to go make some popcorn and give the interview a listen.
Steve
Good stuff! Let me know your thoughts. Thanks Justin.
Judy Helfand
Steve,
Here is what I say: “Thank you, Penelope”. I told you the other day to go back and reread our Skype conversation of February 1, 2011. My words to you at that time were the precursor to Penelope’s. There are days I wish that I had saved all my comments that I have posted on your blog. Believe me, if I had the time or inclination I would research this and send them to you.
Do you have any idea, I mean really any idea, what it means to be self-employed? You told Penelope what your yearly salary is. It was a little hard to hear, something between 55K and 65K. Ok. Now I want you to add to that any benefits: health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, 401k matching funds, 2 weeks paid vacation, federal/state paid holidays, 7.5% of your salary paid by your employer to fund your social security and medicare deposits. Do you have that number yet? Most HR department can give you that GROSS compensation package number in about 3 seconds.
Now that you have that number, remember that you don’t just need to replace the salary figure, you also need to replace all the other items, or as they say GROSS-UP your numbers so that you know what your real nut is. Only add another 7.5% to that number to know your real self employment tax number.
Then add to this equation: discipline. Discipline to save enough money to pay your quarterly estimated taxes, as now you will be self-employed and it won’t happen magically.
Penenlope was right for pointing out that some of your idols like your Middle Finger Project Friend are NOT YOU. She does not already have a spouse, two children and a mortgage. Now she is in Spain.
You say your goal is to spend time with your daughters. Right now your employer is only asking 40 hours a week. Each week has 168 hours, substract 40 employer hours and 40 sleep hours…that leaves you 88 hours to spend with your daughters. Trust me…once you are self-employed you will be lucky to find 10 hours a week for Georgia and Lily. And don’t plan any real vacations.
Steve, I don’t want to sound like I am yelling at you, that is not my intention. Just remember you are the one that said you have never been a good employee. Really? Or never enjoyed being an employee. When you are self-employed you are both.
I have, over the year, given you plenty of counsel to get writing jobs for other blogs, companies, etc. Imagine if you did that and tucked away that money or paid off your debt, or used it just to take wonderful vacations.
Spell out your vision, list your goals and get to it.
I have to go now. I have been up since 4:30AM and my self-employed day will move into the next day.
Talk to you later.
Judy
Steve
Judy,
You have definitely gone out of your way to try and offer sound guidance, I’ll give you that.
I’m thankful that I have you and others that are taking an interest in my story.
As far as my total compensation, here are few things I have not mentioned.
1. My net salary is $52,000/year. My mortgage is $24,000/year. This leaves $28k.
2. I do not reveive any benefits from my employer. No health insurance, retirement, nothing. It all comes from cash flow. Have you ever priced out individual health insuarnce? Try $500-$1,200/month for a family of 4. Compound this with a non working spouse, credit card debt, 2 car payments, and a ton of medical bills, and you can see my struggle. Yes. it comes down to budgeting, but we are doing the best we can right now. So while my goal of being an online entrepreneur is constantly on mind, so is the pressing need to bring in a paycheck.
3. I do realize that I will need to earn more that I currently am in order to have the same standard of living and am familiar with the tax consequences as well. Will it be easy? Of course not but I’d rather be busting my ass doing something I care about than doing what I am now.
4. I also fully understand that being an entrepreneur will consume far more time that working my day job. It all about long-term fo rme though. I’m more than willing to put in the time and effort building something that will provide me freedom over my time in the future. If I stay in my job or any job, I will never have that. That’s the big issue for me.
5. I do get to spend a decent amount of time with my girls, but it’s not enough for me. They truly are my world and I’ve told myself that I won’t be the dad that misses all the “firsts”. For example, my 3 year old just had her first ballet class last week. It was at 3pm on a Wednesday. GUess where I had ot be. My 6 year old had her first soccer practice that night. Guess where I was? Teaching boot camp so I can make extra monry. I’m not saying that millionsof parents don’t dothis each day, but it’s just not something I want in my life. I have to be a part of these experiences.
As far as not being a good employee, the reason is that I hate being one. I can be a great employee but I was not meant to be one.
Thanks again for your time and caring, it means a lot 🙂
Judy Helfand
Steve,
Thanks for the response. You see, a person’s guidance or advice is really worth what you pay for it (old saying) and anyone’s guidance can only be as good as the facts that they know or as they understand them to be. Having said that…it is only now that any of us can really understand that you are up against a lot financially.
Yes, I do understand the cost of medical insurance for a family of four. I have been there. That is why after we sold our 1st business in 1997, I was determined to find work with benefits so I didn’t have to think about the mechanics of shopping for insurance, etc. I was happy to give 40+ hours per week to a good employer who offered all of the benefits I listed in my response. All those that you don’t currently enjoy. I was happy because I only had to work 40+ hours and my weekends were mine, as were my evenings. The first weekend I was home, my two sons (then 17 & 14) said: “Your home? Don’t you have to work?” Because you see from the time they were your little girls ages we had owned the country inn (self-employed 24/7 365 for 12 years!) I looked around and they were grown. And we were always HOME!!! But not home, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, I am not going to drag this out. But I still think that Penelope brought up important elements for you to work through.
Judy
Carl
She’s right about the true worth of a job. It’s called a “loaded” salary cost and when I was working for a Fortune 500 company the average loaded cost of a salaried employee was 25% of the gross pay. Too many young people especially don’t appreciate this or understand it.
Steve
Carl,
You’re right about that. I’ve done total compensation analysis many times and in my case, it’s not pretty. Receiving no medical benefits or retirement plan is a huge negative, and it makes it all that much harder to stay.
Ruth - The Freelance Writing Blog
Wow – I’m only half way through the pod cast, and she is KICK ASS! Embrace it. Free therapy, dude…run with it!
Steve
Ruth,
She IS kick ass for sure. I had no idea what her personality was like, but she doesn’t mess around!
I’m sure many people would have paid plenty for the “therapy” I received. I’m very thankful it happened (well, now I am).
Bridger
She is “KICK ASS!” in some ways, naive in others I’d have to say. I’ve been reading her blog for a while and she has some good ideas, but she is also kind of crazy.
ETG Needs to interview Tim Ferris next!
Steve
I’m not sure Penelope is crazy, but she is definitely a different breed of person.
I’d love to interview TIm Ferriss and have been in contact with his people several times. That one is gonna be hard, but I WILL get that interview. No bullshit.
Eugene
Wow Steve, that was both brutal and brilliant at the same time. I commend you for publishing that, sounds like Penelope didn’t expect you to go public with this either.
That was some great advice. I feel like I was stuck in the place that she describes up to about a week ago. Then I got really serious, which is why I’m launching this new site. I have until the end of the year basically to make something happen, or else I’m going to have to get at least a part time job in Accounting (which I really don’t want to do, but NYC is expensive).
If you ever want to kick some ideas back and forth let me know.
Eugene
But I would like to throw in that she kind of left me with a bad taste in my mouth at the end. It was a bit accusatory at the end.
Steve
I think she just had had enough of my excuses or “bullshit”. I can’t blame her for getting annoyed at my indecisiveness, although it was a bit gruff…
Maria
That was an amazing interview! Wow!
To get past indeciseveness, you need to take action. Set a small goal (preferably monetary since this is what you want to do) and go for it. The experience will teach you a lot on what works for you and what doesn’t (esp. in the writer vs. talking to people dilemma).
Steve
Hi Maria,
Thanks for listening!
Taking action has been my biggest struggle thus far. I spend almost all of my time in my head and end up getting overwhelmed. That then leads to becoming paralyzed and doing nothing. I’ve started with some small goals and am trying to take on only a few things right now. I usually have dozens of ideas and to do items every day and get frustrated that I can’t get to them all. Right now, I’m focusing on some personal stuff and a few small income producing projects..
Steve
Eugene,
It was pretty brutal wasn’t it? That’s why I called Marcus at 11:30 at night. I was like”WTF just happened here”??
I didn’t realize what your were up to. That’s awesome that you are taking shit more seriously now. As far as getting another job, I DO NOT want to see you have to do that dude!
Let’s chat this weekend..
Vicky
She is good, but don’t forget, she gets beaten up by her husband, and I think this has to affect how someone treats someone else. Good wishes to her, in her goal to leave.
Steve
Vicky,
I’m not sure her tumultuous relationship with her husband has anything to do with how she handled our interview. I think her personality is just very curt and direct. She is super busy and has little time for bullshit. And in her mind, I was feeding her bullshit.
D
As someone who has known her very personally, it’s not about her time. She really is like this, has always been this way, and will always be this way.
I don’t think that’s a bad thing, by the way. But as she said, she has a very high tolerance for risk, and she fails a lot.
I have no doubt that her personality contributes to her marriage problems, but that’s true for all people.
Jason Spencer
Steve, this couldn’t have been better timing for me. I can’t thank you enough for having the balls to share this… that couldn’t have been the easiest thing to pull the trigger on.
She’s not the most gentle coach, but gave full disclosure on that.. she’s a writer, not a coach. 🙂 However, there’s nothing like really blunt, honest advice to motivate us. And I say us, because while you were the guy on the hot-seat on the recording, you weren’t the only guy taking a beating. Anyone who’s completely honest with themselves who is dissatisfied with where they are in life could benefit from putting themselves in your shoes… including me.
Have you read the War of Art yet? I just got through that and recently posted about how it paralyzed me ( http://tribe.ly/the-artists-paralyzation/ ), probably similar to the way this interview did for you. I truly believe that its in this place though that we find the most true version of ourselves. And we come out on the other side truly authentic and real. We also learn to embrace our strengths and stop trying to be something we’re not. (This was Penelope’s point on writers are writers and not people who like to talk/coach, and vice versa). Now is our opportunity to ditch the things we suck at, where we’re weak, and really hone in on the true gifts that we have to offer the world.
The best way that you and I can help other people, is not necessarily to setup a blog, start writing and teach people how to blog about their passions and build their tribes… its to live out our true strengths, be completely authentic and real with ourselves, and walk through the doors that the wind seems to be pushing us through.
Steve
Jason,
I’m happy to hear that this was just what you needed to hear. I was pretty apprehensive about posting it based on the fact that I was discussing my salary. Although I don’t think I was lying to anyone, she did have a point that I wasn’t being completely forthcoming about everything.
For 11 months, I’ve been living in a fantasy land. I’ve been thinking about how I am going to be a successful online entrepreneur and have the lifestyle that I want, etc, but I’ve never taken the deep look into what I truly want. As you say “the most true version of ourselves” is a place I have not visited. I have not looked for it and now I know I need to.
When you say that our greatest strengths might not lie in blogging and teaching but rather live our our true strengths, that’s where I struggle the most. I am trying to find that strength and though I did with my blog. While all of this makes sense, I am still torn between many thoughts and emotions.
Thanks for your support and this awesome comment..
Jason Spencer
Steve, check out Strengthsfinder 2.0 as a pretty simple next step. You can get it digitally through amazon.com or bn.com and you’ll get a code for a 20 minute test online. The test results will return your top 5 strengths, along with a full report containing descriptions of those strengths and ideas on how to put them to use. I had the opportunity to go through this process with a life coach, and it was a real eye opening process of discovery. If you end up doing it, let me know, I would love to exchange results and talk about it.
Steve
Jason,
I’ve never hear of this so thanks. Is it comparable to the Myers Briggs test? I actually love doing things like this to learn more about myself..
Stephen Smith
What Jason said. You also need to do some serious reading. Get The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, Linchpin by Seth Godin, Little Red Book of Selling by Jeffrey Gitomer.
Read them. Read, learn, mark and inwardly digest them. Then sit down and write out your business plan for how you are going to make money during your 8 hours (or 10 or 12 or however many it takes).
Penelope was right, you couldn’t articulate your goal, or even visualize your end-point. I realize that it’s been 2 weeks since this was posted (hold on, I’m going to go look at your most recent post)…
Okay, good. You’ve done some of that. I would recommend that you share your goals on the blog too, so that your readers can pick them apart. They, or rather we, since I think I’ll be paying attention too, will be able to help you stay focused and pointed in the right direction.
And please feel free to e-mail me, I’d like to learn more about the Mastermind group that you tried… I’ve been thinking of starting one.
Have a great trip and good luck.
Steve
Stephen,
I’ve actually had a number of people tell me I should read The War Of Art. I guess it’s time I actually do it!
I love your idea of sharing my goals so they can be picked apart. With so many people (many of whom are far better at this than I am) reading and willing to give their advice, it makes perfect sense.
Also, I do need to create a business plan and am working on some of that right now. I’ve got a lot on my mind as you can probably imagine and am trying to figure some stuff out.
And I am sending you an email right now about the Mastermind..
Melissa
Ouch, dude. Harsh.
While I seriously do NOT agree with how bitchy she was being (I don’t generally agree with the idea that chewing someone out is an effective method for doing productive things, as a rule, but that’s my opinion), she has very valid points.
I think she was also yelling at me, too, and I need to go do some hard thinking about that.
Thank you for putting that up. A lot of folks would sweep that under the rug and pretend it didn’t happen, or go off on how she was just being a total bitch and whine about it. You seem to have the right attitude of taking it constructively to further clarify what you want. I think it could actually be very useful for some of the rest of us, too, as a general kick-in-the-teeth-wake-up.
Steve
Melissa,
I thought about the bitchiness factor as well, but I really just think it’s her personality. She is highly successful and gets shit done. I guess she doesn’t like to play games or waste time and cuts right to the chase.
I’m actually really glad to hear that it resonated with you. I wasn’t sure if this would come across as being all about me. I wanted people to learn from this.
It was definitely a kick in the teeth, but I needed it!
By the way, if you care to share what you’re going through, I’d love to chat…let me know
Melissa
On the Meyers-Briggs line, I’m an INTJ, so I tend to react… poorly to that particular style as a rule. 😉
For me it’s more of a redefining and restructuring of goals. I HAD a fully-formed plan, but a SURPRISE!knee failure threw everything off course. As that was what I affectionately termed Plan Q, I’ve been at a bit of a loss since. (The Reader’s Digest Condensed version is: 2008 – Get laid off from CS Coordinator job. 2009 – Decide “Screw the corporate world, I’m getting that massage therapy license I’ve always wanted” and go to school. 2010 – July, get license. September, right knee gives out completely, spend next several months with a cane and rehab. Current – knee is usable again, but is unfortunately irritated by standard body mechanics required. Attempting to come up with Plan T, having gone through R and S in the meantime.)
I definitely WILL be my own boss one day, I just need to get clear on where I’m going from here, and that’s the point I’ve been kind of stuck on lately.
Steve
Yea, I’m an IFSJ and don’t do well with confrontation usually. I was more shocked that pissed during the call.
That’s a pretty rough deal you got there. That would be like me knowing I wanted to become a motivational speaker and losing the ability to talk.
Will you stay in the MT field? Are you thinking of switching it up altogether?
And as long as you know you will be your own boss,nothing can stop you!
Melissa
Ideally, I’d like to stay in the MT field, as I worked very hard to get there in the first place. One avenue I’m currently exploring is whether or not doing exclusively chair massage is an option. Realistically, though, I may not be able to, and so working on an alternate plan is smart.
One thing I did over the weekend, actually, was sit down and make up a list of “Things That I Enjoy Doing, Am Good At, & Someone Might Be Willing To Pay Me For”. One major thing that popped out was I’m an organization freak, have a major talent for getting folks organized, and like being useful. Small business/home office organizational consulting is a likely prospect if I can figure out how to clear one or two minor hurdles. Especially in today’s economy, many small businesses are trying to run without the folks who would normally deal with that side of things, and many more are trying to run their own home offices, also without fully understanding how the paperwork/filing side of things REALLY works. These poor souls are crying out for help! 😉
As for you, my friend, I am VERY interested in seeing where you decide to go. 🙂
Steve
Melissa,
It’s been a while since you left this comment and I’m interested to hear more about your list of things you are good at and could get paid for. Has your thought on organizing gone anywhere yet? Is chair massage still an option right now? I hope you are making progress or at least taking action on what you’ve learned about yourself…
Let me know!
Melissa
Hi Steve! (I would have responded to the last comment you made to me, but the site isn’t giving the button for some reason.) My plans, in fact, got yet another monkey wrench thrown into the works. This one, at least, is a semi-beneficial one in that it comes with a paycheck. I’m glad to have steady income (and insurance! No fines this year! Yay!) again, but as I’m still in training I’ve had no brain for anything else by the time I get home. That, at least, will improve and I can get on track pretty quickly from.
So, some things have been tabled until further notice, though the nature of my new job involves helping get a small start-up company organized. Still looking in to chair massage on weekends, though, once I get transportation again. Additionally, I am getting my artish website better set up now that I will have money to actually do it right, so I can do some of the more passive things I do, instead of the things that involve having the weekday time any more (http://www.podroznystudio.com). (Grand plan for today is to go through a vast pile of digital photography to see if I can pull together a small desk calender request. If I do, I’ll probably add them to the list of offerings.)
The benefit to NOT specializing, in my opinion, is that when Life throws wrenches into one set of plans, you can stick your tongue out at it and say “Well, fine. I’ll just go and do this other thing instead.” I’m TERRIBLE at stuffing myself into a niche, which can be a disadvantage sometimes, but on the other hand it does mean I’m highly adaptable! 🙂
Steve
Did you break my commenting system Melissa?!? 🙂
Holy crap, you have a lot going on. You need to have a reality show or something with all the ups and downs you’re going through.
If you need help with anything, please feel to ask!!
BethanyBob
Holy crap! A fellow MT! Steve, how do you attract so many of us? 😉
Melissa, sorry to hear about your knee. That really sucks! I only just graduated two weeks ago, and I’m still waiting for my license. I’m thinking about doing corporate chair massage until I can get my own space. I have terrible body mechanics whether I’m doing table or chair massage.
So, please take care of yourself! No sense in jumping up and re-injuring your knee and being out of work that much longer! I’d love to know what alternatives you’re considering, even if they’re temporary.
Melissa
Congrats on graduation, Bethany! Hope your license comes in soon!. 🙂
I blame so many of us finding Steve, here, on the fact that MT’s are just such helpful people, and so few of us are good at the “daily grind”. Birds of a feather, and all that. 😉
My knees are, sadly, a genetic problem, so Swedish work is out (which makes me sad…I’m an EXCELLENT relaxation therapist, and routinely have to wake my clients up. Massage therapy, the only job where putting your client to sleep is considered a badge of honor!). I’d known it was going to be an issue when I started school, and had built my business plan around it. I didn’t know that basic body mechanics would be a factor in making it worse, however. My end goal is to retrain into a style more suited to seated/stationary work, but I need to get out of debt first. In the meantime, I’m currently testing to see if chair massage is an option, and if so am also thinking corporate work. So many stressed out office workers, so many avoidable repetitive motion/postural problems, so EASY to fix! 🙂
Practice those body mechanics! They are SOOO important! Don’t worry, two of my teachers, who are amazing therapists, told us that it actually took them a couple of years after they graduated to get their own mechanics down right. Time and practice, and you’ll get there. I have faith in you! Now, though, I have written a novel, and should probably stop. 😉 Good luck to you! (PS, feel free to drop me a line at melissa@zenandmargaritas.com, if you wish. That goes for you, too, Steve.)
Chris Harris
Hi Steve,
That was hard to listen to in some areas, but I am very glad you shared it.
I bounce back and forth with whether or not I like reading Penelope Trunk. This interview with her really changed my perspective of her.
I appreciate that she did not pull any punches with you. Even though that was a good bruising you got- I think it is totally worth it for you and those of us listening.
She made some very precise and succinct points that many of us could take to heart.
That interview has so much gold in it. I am still digesting everything she said, because there is a bit or a lot of us reflected in you and the points she made.
I would definitely keep an open mind to her words and really dig deep. She was being very specific and pointed.
I was able to follow her points from the get go because I could see some of those things in myself.
Good job on sharing this interview.
Lindsay
Wow! Interesting interview. I’m not sure I would have had the courage to post something like this on my blog.
I think Penelope has some good points, although she presents them very bluntly. She’s right that you need to have a clearly defined goal in order to make progress.
That being said, I don’t agree with all of her points.
I would be interested to hear her and some of the other online bloggers / lifestyle bloggers (Johnny B. Truant, Chris Guillebeau, Pam Slim) debate some points like:
-You have to work 8 hours a day to be successful
-You can’t make money online doing something you love
-You can’t succeed unless you work 24/7
Kudos Steve for posting this even though it must have been a difficult interview!
Nate
Listening to this, I found myself realizing that I exhibit many of these bullshit qualities she was calling you out on. It helped me realize things about myself, and also clarify a bit who I am, and what I want in life, also what I don’t want at the moment. She was straight forward, and I understood her frustration, listening to your rationalizations. Like your friend Marcus said: Embrace it, run with it. Be grateful.
Steve
Nate,
I love that this interview has really reach people on a deep level like this and I’m glad it woke you up to some things as well!
And I am totally embracing this and am looking forward to creating a plan.
Thanks dude.
Steve Rice
Steve,
Woah! I read your previous post on this…I thought that was authentic, but this is better than authentic, it is raw!
I’m going to download it and listen again (as painful as it was…I’m apparently not a writer but a people person…my stomach was in knots from that session). I kept thinking “Will this hour ever end? Oh, wait, it’s only 36 minutes!” Whew.
I think your friend’s advice was spot-on…he just phrased it more tactfully. This is the moment when everything changed.
Someday, you’ll write a blog post in this “series” called “The Day Penelope Trunk Changed My Life!”
I totally applaud your cajones for posting this, but She was right…*this* is what we want to see…not necessarily this harshly, or you getting your ass chewed, but we want to see your growth.
I see so much of myself in you. In fact, my stomach was knotted listening to this because in many ways, she was talking to me (through you).
Keep this in mind as you re-evaluate your goals here. I know you said on the interview you wanted to make it about us and about resources for us…but the best resources for us, will also be what helps you reach your ultimate goals…so carpe diem, my friend.
Steve
Steven,
It was pretty painful wasn’t it? I cringe every time I Iisten to it and keep thinking of how I could have done a better job with it. I was so surprised at what happened that I had a hard time gathering my thoughts.
To be honest, I wasn’t even sure what to think before I got the email from Marcus. It made much more sense after I read that. It was a gift for me to receive that ass whipping. And I know now I had A LOT of work to do here and on myself.
I seem to be so hung up on trying to make things about others and really wanted to stop the conversation with Penelope because she was singling me out. After reading the comments/emails, it seems that this is exactly what people needed to hear in order to look within themselves.
Thanks for your support here, really..
Jason
Steve,
To be honest, this started out as one of those interviews where I can’t relate to the interviewee and end up skipping big sections. Which is what I was doing until I heard her start giving you advice. Then I listened to the rest without skipping. As a new, recent visitor it was frustrating to hear your lack of a plan.
We share the same end goal. I want to spend as much time at home with my wife and children. However, I do have some general goals to get there which involve niche sites. It’s not something I’m completely passionate about. But I am passionate about wanting to work independently from home and I feel for me the most fulfilling path is building passive income.
This is how Pat Flynn is so successful. His success is living by example. He’s making so much now from affiliate products. Why? He decided to a build site and document the process/progress. Now people go through those post and buy hosting, aweber, domains, etc… Granted, when he decided to do it, he was already self employed and had many hours at his disposal.
Which brings me to this. I do have one criticism with Penelope. When you mentioned Pat, she had no idea who he was but proceeded to use him as an example (completely inaccurately) to tear you down more. I lost some respect for her there. I totally disagree with “no one’s making money online without working 8 hours a day”.
I really hope you find something to pour your heart into that will eventually make you money. I believe you have the potential though it may mean focusing less on this blog and more on something else.
Just know you’re not alone in this battle and got some people rooting for you.
Steve
Jason,
I think one of the biggest benefits of this interview was the fact that she caught me off guard. If I knew she was going to drill me, I would have prepared my answers and probably would have been full of shit. The spontaneity showed me that I, in fact, have little idea of what I really want and how to get there. That’s what makes this so valuable for me (and others).
I have played around with niche sites and know they can be a great source of income. I just never took the time to invest in building a good one. I’ve always been so wrapped up in this blog (and life).
While I am a huge fan of Pat’s (personally and business wise), I’m not crazy about his business model. Could I make a decent living from affiliate programs in the future? Probably. My goal is not just to make money online though. I actually want to do something I love every day and I do not love affiliate marketing.
I don’t want to create another job for myself by building something I’m not passionate about. Would it be better than my current job? Yes. At 40 years old though, I want to be happy again. It’s been a long time since I could say that and this is the reason I have been so hesitant to create a product or service.
I’m working with a few people right now on ideas for something unique and valuable for people but I don’t know if anything will come from it.
I also realize that I’m probably shooting myself in the foot by not doing things the traditional ways. MY email list is very small because I have put little time into building it. I use very few affiliate links. I don’t know anything about split testing, conversions, or most other IM jargon. I just don’t care.
This may change in the future, I don’t know. I really do appreciate your support here. If my last 2 posts had been met with no interest, I would be in a much different place right now.
Steve Rice
I could tell what you were doing…about making it useful for us. I try to do the same thing on my blog, but I realized through her feedback that my authenticity is really what people gain the most perspective from.
I’m taking the lessons she brought up and thinking about my own business and blog.
I think deep down, she really cared, or she wouldn’t have tried so hard to “break through” but the way she communicates is difficult for people to hear sometimes…especially because this was an interview and not a personal coaching session.
I am really excited for you and I do look forward to the growth you continue to experience, because I know that you will be better able to share your journey with us for having this experience.
So, again, thank you. I respect you alot.
Steve
You are too kind Steve. It’s really inspiring to me that this interview has had such an impact on you. I’m sure on some level she does care but I have to think that she’s probably heard this type of thing so many times already. I now wish I had used it for more of a personal coaching session, but I was trying so hard not to get drawn into a war of words. Clearly it would have been even better if I had..
I’m also looking forward to what the future will bring but in all honesty, I’m so overwhelmed right now that I feel like my head is going to burst..
marlon @ productivity bits
After listening to the interview, all I can say is WOW! If she charged you $2,500.00 for that call, I’d say make that double.
I think you represented many of us in that call. Many people think that they can really make money by blogging. Remember your short interview with Seth Godin? He said the same thing. You cannot make money just by blogging. Blogging is just a front – a tool of communicating out your ideas to people.
I have a confession. I stopped following Ending The Grind when you started talking about hating your job and about wanting to help other people escape from being trapped, etc.
You know why Pat flynn or Darren Rowse has a lot of followers who just buy anything they put out there – they have a proven formula!
I don’t know how to react to this Penelope Trunk Interview. One think I know: that I was cheering for her while I was listening to your conversation. She got you bleeding there. But we know she spoke the truth.
We call that tough love.
Steve
Hey Marlon,
I agree that the call was worth paying for. That’s one of the biggest benefits of interviewing people, we get free advice! This, of course, was a bit harsher that usual, but was incredibly valuable.
As far as not reading my blog, thanks for the honesty. I’m a little confused because I’ve always talked about hating my job and I’ve always talked about wanting to inspire others to take action on pursuing their passions and leaving as miserable job.
I’ve never claimed to be an expert or tried to teach people how to quit and/or make money online because I haven’t!
You’re the first person to admit cheering for her, I’ll give you that! I think the shock really came after I got off the phone with her and was totally at a loss for what just happened.
Thanks for coming back, anyway. I appreciate it.
marlon - productivity bits
Steve,
I’m here to stay. This is a tipping point. From here I know we can expect success from you. I feel that I will be learning a lot from your journey from here on.
Marlon
Steve
Awesome to hear Marlon! Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Benny
I hope you got a bazillion views. That means your server would have crashed for sure. 🙂
Yeah I definitely don’t think anything could have topped that part of the interview. It ended at a great spot. You two could have talked about hard evidence of aliens at Area 51 and it wouldn’t have mattered.
She was definitely direct. The interview turned around and she was the one interviewing you. This interview made your Seth Godin spontaneous interview seem like cake!
No matter her tone, she definitely wanted to help you. She could have cut it off much earlier or said I don’t have time for this. Instead she kept pushing your buttons to get you to think of your goals. That may be her style. I know who she is but have never heard her speak.
But there is a lot you can take from it. You asked her for career advice and she gave it to you w/o sugar coating it. No one probably has ever given it to you like that so you were caught off guard. I think she made good points though.
Since I found your blog, I definitely can relate to you except I don’t have a family. But I feel your struggle and frustration. So I want nothing more to find your way to end the grind. I can tell you’re an outstanding guy, a great family man, and truly want something better for your life. I can definitely support that type of person.
Have you thought about getting a coach? Someone to help you figure out your goals? Have you read “Escape from Cubicle Nation”? Great book. I read it this year. Pam Slim wrote it and she helps people quit their cube jobs and pursues their passion. She has coaching packages but I know you may not have the funds for it right now. She does have a free monthly group call http://www.escapefromcubiclenation.com/free-calls/. The book may help you. Also, she would be a great guest for your podcast. If you’re looking for more career advice for free, that’d be a way to get some. I’ve only tweeted with her a few times but overall seems like a great person.
Definitely use what Penelope said as a turning point. I can still hear her voice in my mind challenging you to the core to define what you want as I type this. Thanks for posting it unedited. It definitely helped me gain some focus.
As always, I’m just an email away if you need some feedback or have questions!
Jason Spencer
I have to second Benny’s advice on the coach idea. I’ve been working with a Life Coach since spring 2011, and nothing has opened my mind more to discovering my strengths and who I am in terms of what I can offer the world. I work with someone locally who I can meet face to face with, but I know there are some awesome coaches that do incredible work over the phone too, like the one Benny suggested. This would be an awesome next step for you. Consider the costs an investment in yourself and your future. (maybe even try building one of those “boring” niche sites Pat Flynn style just to cover your coaching expenses monthly.. 🙂
Steve
Ideally I would love to meet with someone but there are sooo many other things that take up my time (and mostly my money). I read a ton of books but I know that’s not even close to the same thing.
As far as the niche sites, I actually have done many hours of keyword research and have spreadsheet upon spreadsheet of awesome keywords. I just haven’t felt like I’ve had the time to commit to creating a good one. All my energy (and limited time) goes here…
Danny @ Firepole Marketing
Time is one thing, but if it’s money, that shouldn’t be an issue – there are plenty of people who would be happy to get on the phone with you once in a while and hold you accountable to moving in the right direction, as long as you reciprocate. I’d be happy to do that, if you’re interested. 🙂
Steve
Danny,
That’s a great offer and I appreciate it. Since we’ve already connected earlier today, I am taking you up on your offer!
Thanks for this, it really does help.
Steve
Benny,
I’m not in it for the traffic, but I do love all these comments! I was kind of bummed at the end though because I really wanted to pick her brain about some other things. It worked out better that I imagined anyway.
I did realize that she was taking control of the interview but because of who she is, I didn’t want to be disrespectful so I let her run with it. It’s better off that way anyway as she is far more experienced that I am! I’ve worked with people in short bouts but my cash flow is very limited and cannot afford it right now. I read tons of books but as you can see, I have a problem with implementing the advice I get.
It all boils down to deciding what exactly I want to accomplish here. Helping people is simply not enough. Hating my job is not a business model. I actually have Pamela Slim on my list of people to contact, but am working hard on getting Gary V and Tim Ferriss! Won’t that be sweet!
As far as getting free advice in my interviews, that’s definitely an added bonus. A HUGE bonus but I don’t want that to interfere with getting great information for my listeners. BY the way, we definitely need to chat soon!
BethanyBob
I finally got a chance to listen to this podcast, and it’s probably a good thing I wasn’t anywhere near a keyboard: I became violently angry only 17 minutes into the interview. And when I become violently angry, I write things I later regret.
So, I thought about it. And stewed over it. And wrote some not-very-nice things in my notebook, instead.
The worst part about the whole experience was the conclusion that Marcus Sheridan and your other commentors came to:
She’s right.
Not completely on everything she said, ever. (Ohhh, do not get me started.)
But she’s right in that we, as aspiring Grind-enders, are lacking goals. We covered this in my massage school’s business classes, and I want to slap myself for not taking it more seriously. There are several versions of “SMART(ER)” goal setting, but this is what we were taught: goals need to be Specific, Measurable, Attainable, Realistic, Time-Lined, Enthusiastic, and Rewarding.
Secondly, she’s right in that we need to find other successful entrepreneurs — in our case, those with families — to look up to. I’d love to become like Ash Ambirge — but I can’t, because I have a son. I can’t pick up and move to Spain at the drop of a hat, and I can’t devote my entire day (much less eight hours of it) to writing, marketing, interviewing, etc.
Finally, she’s right in that, as a reader, I WANT to see and learn from your problems, your solutions, and your successes. There hasn’t seemed to be a lot of that up until now. Ash is very candid in her blog, and that’s part of her success. Everybody falls. Not everybody gets back up and becomes madly successful afterward. That’s why these stories of everyday-people-turned-entrepreneurs resonate with readers.
My suggestion to you is to stop listening to this podcast on repeat, and relisten to your other podcasts for advice and inspiration. For example, I just listened to #20 with Natalie Sisson in which she talks about how her business evolved from her blog to what it is today. For her, it WAS a starting point. Does that mean her blog was worthless in the end because she didn’t have a goal? NO. It added to her experience.
We are in the baby stage of this entrepreneurial stuff. We still have to do the work, make mistakes, and keep going in order to stop having to work for someone else and have independent schedules. The more solid our goals are, the quicker we’ll be able to grow. Just sitting here and whining about hating our jobs isn’t helping us. (I say whining because it’s what I do — not necessarily what you do.)
So, there. That’s about as civil a comment as I can manage. I’m gonna hit “Post!” before I change my mind.
Steve
Holy super comment Bethany!
I’m not sure if you would have been as pissed off if you knew who Penelope was. She is a very talented and respected figure in the business world and was the reason I didn’t get pissed off during the interview. If it had been someone else, I may have given back as much as I took.
What I didn’t think was correct was when she said that we need to have someone’s life in order to have their business. Why? I would love to have Ash’s business but I don’t need to live in Chile to do it. What does she have? Great writing and marketing skills. A huge personality. A community that will buy anything from her because they love her and she provides incredible value. Uniqueness and originality. Can someone else have these things without living like a nomad? I don’t see why not.
I definitely need to go back through all my interviews for advice and suggestions I’ve missed. Basically I need to focus on what the hell I want to do with this.
I know I have a long way to go and I have no problem working my ass off for 10 years to get there, I just need to find my destination first…
BethanyBob
I get super fiery and spend a lot of time on a thing when I get angry. It’s finally starting to run its course.
Like I said to you on Twitter, fame is relative. She’s just not relevant to me. She never came up in my Internet travels. She’s not on the news. She has no effect on my immediate social/business circles. So, she’s an author. So what? So are a lot of people I know.
Now she’s only relevant in that she’s left me asking, “Who the @#$% do you think you are?!” I think you’re right in that it’s her personality: I have never dealt well with talented, respected “celebrities” with such personality traits.
So, I’m glad you kept your head and got something out of it. I got something out of it, too. If nothing else, it’s generated some great dialogue, right?
Here’s to figuring out some SMART goals for ourselves and our budding businesses! (Is 7:30 too early to start drinking? Shoot.)
Steve
Bethany,
It’s pretty awesome that you feel so strongly about defending me here. I like to think it’s because of who I am and the bond we’ve formed here.
This interview has spurred on the best feedback and insights I’ve ever received. So, it was invaluable to me and hopefully to others well.
As far as the goals, I have a lot of work to do and am overwhelmed at the thought of what lies ahead. No more playing in the minors….
Claudia
I agree with BethanyBob in the sense that I believe it would have been a greater achievement had Penelope Trunk found a way to convey the good points she had in a manner that was warm and supportive but still got the message across. There is a way to give wise strong advice without making the other person feel small or ashamed. There is a way to honor where we are all on on our journeys while still providing a kick in the ass. You may not have your career figured out, but I have a hunch you have warmth and sensitivity that some people don’t even realize they lack. I write this as someone very familiar with her blog and who enjoys her very smart writing style (but would not really want to have a long chat with her). 99.9% of us are not cut out to be anything like Penelope Trunk – she is very open about being a unique person with an unusual lifestyle and temperament. I just hope you remember that what made you reel and cringe in this interview – that vulnerability and sensitivity – is a strength of yours, not a weakness. Now figure out how to use it (i.e., take the kick in the pants while still loving yourself and your journey).
Steve
Claudia,
I am not very receptive to this kind of “in your face” approach and given my nature, much prefer a supportive conversation. That being said, this interview wouldn’t have had nearly the effect on me (or others) if it wasn’t this blunt. I do consider my sensitivity and compassion to be two of my biggest strengths. I have some serious thinking to do about how to incorporate these into my future business.
Justin | Mazzastick
Hey Steve,
Juicy interview and this could be the one to put your blog over the top.
Every good blogger has had something happen that was perceived as negative yet it had a positive reaction.
I do like the idea of showing your monthly earnings to show your readers step by step how you are progressing to ending the grind for yourself.
Steve
Justin,
This definitely was a defining moment for me, now I just need to use what I’ve learned. Not sure what my plans will be just yet but the income reports are definitely being overused now. Like I’ve mentioned, I want to do something unique and I have a lot of thinking/planning to do.
Thanks for being such a great source of support over the last few months. It really does help..
Laura Rupp
This was as clear and real as you can get, and right to the heart of any step forward. You can’t make a change unless you are aware of how you are showing up in a situation and how you are keeping yourself from what you really want. The question I always have to ask myself and remind clients to consider as they seek transition is “how am I getting in my way?” This is crucial when we coach others but also crucial to realize personally so we don’t deceive ourselves. The question needs to be repeated since it is challenging to be objective about ourselves and internal resistance is deep and tenacious.
This is a watershed moment, and they usually come in this form, as a slap upside the head. Then we are forced to pay attention! I wish you the best in your search, and starting with a clear look at yourself is the best starting point. There is Myers Briggs, Strengthfinders, many others, including the Birkman Assessment which I use. You can use these tools to get at clearer information you need about yourself, a way to be objective and honest. Exploration around the issue of why you are a “terrible employee” is a really important issue to consider. I sense there is more to that and looking at why things have or have not worked for you would be helpful as you search for what is a better fit.
I appreciate the lessons you share in your search and this honest and revealing interview is helpful in more ways than you know!
Steve
Hi Laura,
Your words are spot on. I had my head in the sand (or somewhere else) thinking I was going to just keep doing what I had been and have a business. I had no goals, no real plans, and no idea of really what I wanted to do here. Obviously this is the recipe for disaster. Sooo thankful for that interview…
I have been getting in my own way for a long time. I really think it’s a fear of success. I feel bad taking money. I play not to lose. It like I won’t be able to handle the responsibility of being a success. Maybe it was the way I was raised, maybe I learned it as an adult. I don’t know.
I am familiar with my Meyers Briggs score and if I had thought about it on the call, I would have told her. I know what I’m good at and what fulfills me the most. According to my score though, it’s not writing or being an entrepreneur but that’s ok.
As far as my loathing for being an employee, I think there are many issues at hand. I won’t go into it, but you make a good point of asking myself why.
Awesome comment-thanks so much 🙂
Laura Rupp
The universe must be sending some kind of message, just saw and read this article: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/10/03/111003fa_fact_gawande?currentPage=1
It is long but worth reading in regard to the benefits and difficulty of allowing someone else to point out where we can make improvements. It is so true that we “can’t hear our own voice.” Our reality is formed by our own perceptions and this leads to our blind spots.
“You have to work at what you’re not good at. In theory, people can do this themselves. But most people do not know where to start or how to proceed. Expertise, as the formula goes, requires going from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence to conscious competence and finally to unconscious competence. The coach provides the outside eyes and ears, and makes you aware of where you’re falling short. This is tricky. Human beings resist exposure and critique; our brains are well defended.”
Lots of good insight in the article, hope you have time to take a look!
Steve
This was actually a great article, Laura. Thanks for sharing it with me. I feel like I’ve been blind to so many things in my life and this is certainly a big wake up call. My head is spinning with all the advice and feedback I’ve been getting. I’ve actually been working with someone who had been coaching me with a few things and tonight she put me to the test. I’ve got some thinking and planning to do right now and I’m excited about where I am headed..
Keith
Dude! You just got the best advice and coaching session money could buy, and it was effing FREE!
Go back and look at your post about your dilemma here on ETG, read the comments (especially mine).
I have long said that a blog is NOT a business, but only a tool to help grow/market a business. Unless you plan on offering some services/products here, what will this blog ever serve?
I just fell in love with Penelope! She told you the 100% truth, and I applaud you for posting it here!
A blog is a timesuck! She hit the nail on the head. Blog less, create more. Look to your actual expertise. I have told many people this, you mentioned people like Pat Flynn… his money came from LEEDS and iPhone apps long before SPI made him anything, because that was where his experience was! Same goes for people like Risley and Rowse.
In this industry (IM) you HAVE to prove yourself before you can tell others “how to” do anything.
Find a product to sell, create something, write a book, anything you can do to actually make income! Do ANY of these blog posts make any money towards you reaching that goal of leaving the 9-5?
Steve
Keith,
I couldn’t agree more. It was invaluable!
I have always understood that a blog is not a business by itself. What my dilemma has been is trying to find exactly what I want to create here and how to deliver it. Just selling a products to start generating income is not of interest to me. I want to do something I love. I can easily go create more income by taking on personal training clients, but I don’t love it. I’ve been doing it for 14 years and am very good at it, but at age 40, I want to start doing shit I really, truly love.
At first, I wasn’t all that crazy about Penelope, but the more I listed to the interview, the more I like her.
As far as proving yourself before trying to teach others of course makes sense. I’ve never tried to teach anyone anything I haven’t done myself.
My goal has never been to teach people how to make money online. I think my strength lies in inspiring people.
Either way, I am not sure what will come from this. Will I move forward, shake things up, and kick some ass? I would like to think so. But in all honesty, I have no idea.
As far as being closer to leaving my job, I have 2 answers:
1. From a financial standpoint-No. I have made almost no money here.
2. From an opportunity standpoint-Yes. I have made a ton of friends over the last year and we just never know when we might get an email, invitation, JV, or other project that changes our lives. I’m not counting on any of that, but you never know!
Steve
Keith,
I couldn’t agree more. It was invaluable!
I have always understood that a blog is not a business by itself. What my dilemma has been is trying to find exactly what I want to create here and how to deliver it. Just selling a products to start generating income is not of interest to me. I want to do something I love. I can easily go create more income by taking on personal training clients, but I don’t love it. I’ve been doing it for 14 years and am very good at it, but at age 40, I want to start doing shit I really, truly love.
At first, I wasn’t all that crazy about Penelope, but the more I listed to the interview, the more I like her.
As far as proving yourself before trying to teach others of course makes sense. I’ve never tried to teach anyone anything I haven’t done myself.
My goal has never been to teach people how to make money online. I think my strength lies in inspiring people.
Either way, I am not sure what will come from this. Will I move forward, shake things up, and kick some ass? I would like to think so. But in all honesty, I have no idea.
As far as being closer to leaving my job, I have 2 answers:
1. From a financial standpoint-No. I have made almost no money here.
2. From an opportunity standpoint-Yes. I have made a ton of friends over the last year and we just never know when we might get an email, invitation, JV, or other project that changes our lives. I’m not counting on any of that, but you never know!
Keith
Sometimes we have to do thing we may not love to get to where we can do something we are more passionate about, coaching might be your ticket….
Steve
I hear you there. I can’t reasonably expect to do something I love ALL the time. I certainly have thought about the coaching angle and it does play into my Myers Briggs personality type. 🙂
Grady Pruitt
Wow… After listening to this interview (and I’m not even finished with it yet), I wonder how I would have fared with this. Like you, I thought I knew about what my goals are. But maybe I need to stop and think what my goals really are.
I know that 2 months ago, I had had my site, but didn’t really put much effort into it. Then, in the last couple of weeks, I began actually working on my site. I still have a long way to go, but I am making more progress than I was.
As I listen, though, I can’t help but feel that I am seeing myself in you. (And just as I was about to write that very line, she just happens to say that we’d see ourselves in you!)
Although I’m sure you felt uncomfortable while this interview was going on, but it really is a great one! Thanks for sharing it!
Steve
Grady,
Glad to hear this this interview got you thinking and reevaluating your goals (or lack thereof) as well.
Good for you for moving forward with your blog. Just keep it going. Just remember to work towards your goals and not fall into the trap I did. Good luck , man!
Torre - Fearful Adventurer
I’ll be reading your blog a lot more from now on. I want to see what you’ll do with this advice. I agree wholeheartedly with everything Penelope says. I would buy her book in a heartbeat (if only it was on Kindle!).
I don’t think she’s being harsh or unfair. At the risk of making herself look bad, she’s saying what a lot of people secretly think, but nobody else is generous enough to say. This is the most selfless way to help somebody.
Steve—well done for posting this. You’ve made yourself incredibly vulnerable. That takes a lot of courage. You also kept yourself together, and that says a lot about the kind of person you are. You didn’t flare up and get angry. There’s no easy way to hear that stuff, and I think you handled it perfectly.
The question is: what will you do with this? I’m holding my breath to find out…
Steve
Hey Torre, I thought you read every post already! 🙂
I don’t think she was unfair either although she did jump to a few conclusions. She had no idea who Pat Flynn was and yet decided to tell me how he made his money and how he spent his time. She also said she probably knew more about me than I did. I had never spoken to her before nor had she ever read my blog. Being perceptive is one thing, but she doesn’t know me. Regardless though, she knows her shit and I have a ton of respect for her.
It takes a lot for me to get outwardly angry and I was more in shock than anything anyway. I just would never have imagined that she would turn like that, but I am so grateful that she did.
Big things on the horizon…scared of the accountability though…
Torre - Fearful Adventurer
I stop by when I get a chance, but I’m swamped with book promotions at the moment.
“scared of the accountability though” — I think it’s key that you focus on this statement. It’s the root of what’s holding you back. Fears are almost always unreasonable. Believe me … I know. 🙂
Good luck! We’re all cheering you on.
Steve
I knew you would single out that statement! As I was writing out the comment, it hit me that I am afraid of putting my ass on the line and having to produce. As it stand right now, I can do anything I want becasue it’s a hobby. When I make the transition, I will be accountable for my actions and it becomes a whole new ball game.
Kathy Ver Eecke
Steve:
I’m with Torre. I had stopped reading the blog as well because every time I logged on it was someone else’s story (even though one of those stories was mine!). I find that I read the certain blogs because I feel I know the person writing them. Of course I’m there to learn something too (that would be Pat’s model. HIm + useful tools), but if I don’t feel I’ve connected with the person I move on. With all the guest posts, and podcast interviews I felt like I lost you in this blog. I ended up back here because another blog I follow mentioned it, or I would have completely missed this fabulous interview. Now I’m locked in, holding my breath to see what you’ll do!! So glad to be back!!
K
Steve
Hi Kathy,
Thanks for your honesty about this. I have often felt like I lost touch with my readers because of the guest posts and Podcasts. I’ve kept it up because I thought people wanted it. I would prefer to write more often but am trying to give people what they want to read.
Given what’s recently happened here, I am making some big changes and that does involve less guest posting and Podcasting. My post on Monday will shed some light on what’s going to happen…
It good to have you back! 🙂
Jana
wow…painful im sure but really useful. love that woman. ive never heard an interview with her…only read her blog.
jana
Brankica
Steve, this is amazing. one of the best things I have ever heard.
I started reading her blog recently and I was so sad I didn’t run into it sooner. She is amazing.
I am glad you posted this! She was honest to the bone and although none of us likes to hear anything bad about ourselves or about things we do, I think this was needed, not only for you but a lot of us.
The thing I am most glad about it that she said that blog is not a business. I keep saying that to everyone that asks me about blogging and making money doing it.
So many people created that one blog they use to write about things they don’t know about and hope it turns big. Tough luck.
Blogs are such time suckers and I can’t believe I let my blog be the priority over my money makers. Fortunately I realized it a few months ago and reduced time I spend on the blog. It was a big step forward.
Including this in the round up on Saturday, hope more people listen to this!!!
Steve
What up Brankica?
Good to see you here again!
Although I’ve never pretended to be successful or a an expert, it’s still hard to hear that. I felt like a high school student getting beaten down by their guidance counselor. I really was trying to avoid getting into a heated argument with her and honestly thought that this wouldn’t be all that interesting to people. Wrong.
You’ve done a great job at diversifying your projects and seem to be doing a little of everything. I’m still learning how this all works and kinda had the idea that my blog would just blow up into something huge and successful one day. It’s just not the way it works as you know.
Thanks for the future shout out, I do appreciate that 🙂
Sergio Felix
Hey Steve,
First time I am here and I honestly want to say I felt like I was receiving the reprehension (actually, THE great advice) myself!
It was a wake up call for me as well. I won’t get into any further details but I really respect you for putting this out for your readers, I honestly do.
Kudos to you man (and Penelope as well) I’m definitely looking forward to check out your stuff from now on because I know it will be AWESOME after this call.
I don’t know how it was before because like I said above, it’s my first time here but I’m sure it will be something very valuable.
Enjoy your ride to the top!
~Sergio
PS. This is one of the first amazing podcasts I listen to in a blog where the commenters are NOT leaving their website links, I wonder why LOL 😉
Steve
Sergio, good to have you here!
It makes me happy to hear that this interview spoke to you as well. I was hoping that people would find it useful and wouldn’t think it was just about me. Yes, it was hard to hear and was a little embarrassing, but my whole goal here is to provide value to my readers. I’m just glad people are finding this so useful and motivating. I’ve got a lot to think about now and I look forward to seeing you around..
Deeone
Hey Steve,
Let me just say, I have learned tons from this podcast and throughout the comments! Totally notify me of the followup!
I could only imagine if this was me, I probably would’ve seriously needed at least 3…or 4 glasses of wine to calm me down. Then after that 4th glass of wine, maybe a shot of Goldschlager (that would totally depend on how calm I was after the wine though… just to be safe.) After that though, I would’ve more than likely thought about calling Penelope back and letting her have a piece of my mind.
My ego, however, would’ve stopped me in the middle of my tracks on the way to the laptop and calmly whispered in my ear that she was absolutely right about a lot of her points. Harsh, but right.
It’s sometimes that type of harshness that kicks us into gear though.
I know that I pulled a few things from your conversation with this young lady, a young lady that I’ve never even heard of until today, but let me tell you this… I definitely know her now! (Thank you bud for this awesome intro)
She was raw, but she made some rather valid points. Too many times we want the life that we see other’s having and not taking into consideration what that life entails. What I got most from this podcast is that it’s OK to pattern yourself with someone that’s already where you want to be, but be realistic and wise in whoever is being considered as being that pattern.
This type of honesty either sends a person into the corner rocking and sucking on their thumb or it kicks them seriously in the ass into action. Trust Me, I know!
Take the information and grow from it my friend. She gave you a wealth of it. I’m learning that it’s that kind of honesty that you want to hear.
As long as I was getting the “sweet nothings” on my other blog and catering to the majority I wasn’t getting half the feedback that I get now. (Not that it’s that many, but it’s more than I had before)
It wasn’t until you dropped that “it was boring” on me that I realized that I really wasn’t writing about what I wanted to write about, and it was showing throughout my work.
I did make some changes on the new site, but after THIS podcast… there’s some more changes on the horizon.
Thanks for not punking out my friend and keeping this one to yourself. I fail to believe that you were the only one that learned something from this. I know I gathered a lot of truths about myself listening. And isn’t that what we’re truly going for?
Awesome post Steve!
Steve
Deeone,
This has been an eye opening experience for me big time! I was definitely pumped after the interview and it took a call from my friend Marcus to calm me down.
I learned a few critical lessons from Penelope and am using them to build my future business here.
I love what you’ve done with yourself since our initial conversation. You’ve really changed the direction of your focus and passion and it’s awesome to see!
To be honest, I wouldn’t have learned half the things I have if it wasn’t for all these wonderful comments. And like I said in the interview, I don’t care about looking stupid or try to come across as something I’m not. I’m 10X better for having gone through this and if I had been worried about being embarrassed, I would have missed out on this incredible gift.
Karthik
Steve,
Greetings from Bangalore. I am regular listener to your podcast. Never felt need to post since topics all made sense.
First of all many thanks for posting this. Not many would do that.
This podcast reminded me of incident of 1988 when my first manager hauled me over coal for sloppy way of work. Yes at 25 then, I could have taken personally and got rotten. I took this as a challenge and learned. Set goals wrote down and systematticaly worked towards acheiving it. Yes success rate 70%. Yes family issues well supported by wife (1991).
Jolts are required to take stock and look from fresh perspective. Had another one in 1999 with a bad boss which helped a course correction for better.
This podcast is life changer for many. I might do more close introspection to see How I can do more, How can I do better? Penelope Trunk thro you has sent out that message…
Many thanks
Regards
Karthik
Bangalore.
Steve
Karthik,
Thanks for taking the time to leave your thoughts, I appreciate it.
I agree that often times we need that wake up call or jolt to get us moving. Penelope provided that for me and I hope it helps you in some way as well..
Tabitha
Hi there! I came over from Penelope’s blog, I am new to hers and this is my first time on yours. I blog for fun and because I write but I am on this quest of “What am I supposed to be doing with my life?” and where writing and blogging fit into that picture. I have read enough of her stuff to know her style (I am a big fan of a no-nonsense approach) but, WOW. She definitely didn’t mince words! I commend you for posting this as it has given me a great deal to ponder. I paused the interview to take the Myers Briggs and had my husband do it, too (he’s also exploring his career options at the moment) and it was very eye-opening. I am an ENFJ, a TEACHER, which is what my bachelor’s degree is in…yet I hated being a 4th grade classroom teacher for the two years that I did it. Funny, isn’t it? I do love teaching, but how can I make money at it (without going back to the classroom) and use it to meet my goals?
I am the type who does LOVE working with people AND writing…so boy, do I have some soul-searching to do to figure out which one I really LOVE! I am a stay-at-home mom myself and one of my goals IS to be avaiilable to my young son during the day and my older son after school. If I really want to make an income, what AM I going to do with my eight hours?? Or four hours, if I work part-time??
These are great things to lull over and I truly thank you for having the guts to let us hear this. I can imagine how hard it was to hear but i know I needed the reality check, too. Good luck in your quest!
Steve
Tabitha,
It does sound like you have a lot to think about! I love reading comments from people who have started really thinking about their own situation after listening to this interview.
It seems like you have a good understanding of what you’re good at, so that’s a great first step. I’m like you in that I love to write AND love working 1 on 1 with people.
I’d love to hear your progress when you figure out what it is you are planning on going after.
Thanks for your thoughts here..
Kay Lorraine
OK, we’re voting now. Penelope wins. Sorry Steve, but she is right. Your blog would be way more interesting if you were more honest about what was going on with yourself. Personally, I wouldn’t pay someone to tell me how to change my life. I would much rather watch someone else go through it and see the parallels to my own problems.
Her comment about blogging not being a goal but a path to a goal had some resonance with me. I blog, too. But not regularly or seriously. I would love to make a living writing but I notice that I don’t. I have a guy who’s been trying for a year to get me to ghost write a book for him. I notice that I’m too busy. I think that I would love to make a living writing but I’m turning down the chance to do it. ‘Cause I don’t really like him much, and I know that the book would be mostly lies and full of his bullshit and I could write it in my sleep because bullshit is easy. Truth is hard.
So….. whatcha gonna do now, Steve? Sounds like your stuck. Me, too. Ain’t it a bitch?
Good luck little buckeroo!!!
Donita
I read many blogs and I do it because I enjoy reading them. I read Penelope and sometimes I am concerned for her. She shares her real life and she leaves me concerned for some of her personal life experiences. I’m concerned, not for her business or that she shared what most people hide. I get concerned because I like her and when I read some of the life struggles it leaves me wanting to just talk to her or just be there to listen. As far as her business, she is just plain good! Follow her advise and you’ll be successful – even if you are an employee to an employer. She is right and I got very frustrated with the way you responded. You were so repetitive and whinny. Please! You have this top notched business and career guru on the phone and your not listening, your not taking full advantage of getting as much from her as you can get, in real time! Yes, I know, you’ve listened to the podcast and now you see the value and you’re going to dig deep and get those goals down. But I wanted to hear more from her and where she could lead you, if you would allow yourself to be led. Remember, when you have someone like her and all those who have posted here, taking the time to post, and in her case, to talk to you, LISTEN! LISTEN! and begin to get creative and mindful and real! Life is too short to try to get someone to understand you want to be free of responsibility of an 8-5, learn from what and who is taking the time to be there with you. I have never read you but I do read Penelope and she is worth whatever you got from her, rough or not. I also had to look in the mirror. I think everyone who posted here did also. Wow! Through your trying to say whatever to her, she still got through to us and to you. Worth every bit of the life spent on it. Thanks!
Steve
Donita,
Penelope is as real as they come and it seems like she’s had a pretty tough life.
As far as the interview, I don’t think I was whiny. I think I was caught off guard and trying to (ineffectively) explain my situation to her. Ultimately she was right on though. She saw I was full of shit and called me out. I’ve learned an invaluable lesson from this and am very thankful for it.
If I could do it again, I would let he dig deeper into each issue and I would ask better questions. I was simply not prepared for that conversation.
Thanks for taking the time to listen and share your thoughts with me.
ifigenia
I’m Penelope’s follower and i’ve never had the chance to see your blog. I think that was a good opportunity.
You did so right to share this conversation, because so many people will “hear” themselves talking, and that’s a huge help for them and for you.
It’s never pleasant realizing that someone else can figure out easier what’s YOUR problem,… it’s pretty annoying huh?
Some time simple thoughts can take you out the tunnel and i think Penelope tried to saw you a path.
I would take it if i were you.
Thanks again for sharing this and good luck!
Steve
Hi Ifigenia,
Although I didn’t realize that this would be so beneficial for people, I am sooo glad I posted it. Penelope clearly saw right through me and my lack of direction and I’m very thankful she had the guts to call me out on it.
Kathleen
Steve, thanks for sharing this. A couple of comments for you:
–Penelope Trunk has been totally upfront about being sexually and physically abused as a child, and has said she thinks she may have Asperger’s syndrome, so her lack of social finesse should not come as a big surprise. But that’s OK, because she has other good qualities.
–Blogging is about story-telling. If you’re truly an ISTJ, you are not a natural storyteller. You’re lacking the NF qualities that would let you tap into the imaginative, emotional juice of life. If you want to be a writer, you should look into technical writing. That could let you work at home on your own schedule and would play to your strengths. Just a suggestion.
–As someone who just recently FINALLY made the leap from a lifetime spent working for others into self-employment, I feel your angst about making the move, especially with a family depending on you. But like the old Nike slogan, “Just do it.”
–You’ve probably read this poem by Mary Oliver before (http://www.loc.gov/poetry/180/133.html), and nowadays it’s quoted so often it’s become somewhat cliche. But it never fails to move me:
“Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?”
Sorry to ramble on, but your “bloody epiphany” stirred up a bunch of stuff for me. I truly applaud the strength of character it took to post this. I think this is a definite sign that you have potential. Best wishes in figuring out what that is.
Steve
Hi Kathleen,
I’m not sure there is a correlation between abuse and her overly direct temperment. I’m sure there are many factors that play into how she is. And yes, she does have many good qualities and I would even say that her straight forward, no bullshit approach is a positive.
As far as my personality type, I’m actually an ISFJ, which is also not a storyteller. MY creative skills are at about nil. I am a pretty analytical thinker but am overly sensitive and emotional. I would make a great teacher or social worker, but don’t want to limit my income to that little. I would like to get ahead one day financially and those careers are not the way. Not starting at 40 anyway.
Although I might be good at technical writing, I prefer to write from the heart. I like to write when I’m inspired, not when I have to. Maybe I’m not cut out for a writer’s life and that’s ok.
When I read quotes or poems like this one, it puts me in a place of reflection. I look at my life and what I’ve done and where I want to be and I’m not happy. I spend an insane amount of time thinking about life and spent little time actually moving forward towards what I want.
Thanks for this great comment and I truly appreciate your support.
Jack@TheJackB
Several thoughts come to mind. I completely disagree with her assertion that you can’t be a writer and talk to people.
I am a professional writer and I get paid to talk to people too.
I get irritated with people who only want to see the world as being black or white and that is how this came off.
Her comment about goals seemed to be accurate. I heard you talk about what you want but I didn’t hear a plan. There were nuggets of wisdom interspersed in this but there was a lot of myopia based solely on her experience.
Did you prepare a list of questions for her before the interview or did you try to wing it?
Steve
Jack,
Finally someone has said what I’ve been saying. I think her statement about writers not being good with people is completely inaccurate as well. Just because Penelope is ultra successful, doesn’t mean she is always right.
Her points on goals and blogging were very good though and I did agree with most of what she had to say.
I did have a list of about 10 or12 questions prepared but we only got to about 4 or 5 I think. From the time I asked her about being trapped in a job, it was a free for all. I wasn’t prepared for the direction this interview took nor did I want to get into a heated discussion. I kept thinking that people don’t want to hear Penelope browbeat me here, they want to hear the answers to the questions I have prepared. So wrong.
Looking back, I should have engaged with her more and dug deeper into what she was saying, but like I said, I was in shock!
emily
Jack – Writers generally observe and then process on their own. That’s what the writing is – the evidence of that processing. You can love people all you want but if you’re strength is pulling back and reflecting than you’d make a good writer.
Entrepreneurs are kind of a different breed. They are better at processing in the moment. You can hear how Penelope processes well in the moment during the interview – she kills with that skill.
If you want to market your own writing you can get better at spontaneous processing. Everyone should – it’s called collaboration and it’s part of what makes this next generation so different than the last. It’s totally possible to learn but most people have a tendency one way or the other.
Jack@TheJackB
Emily,
I am not so black and white in my description of what or who a writer is. I am a professional writer. I am a marketer. I am a salesman.
I am successful at all of these things. I can stand up in front of a crowd of 2 or 1000 and be comfortable speaking.
This is not different or unusual. There are many other writers who have these skills.
Entrepreneurs are not a different breed. That is a load of crap. We’re all a different breed and we all have different approaches to life.
Penelope is very black and white in her approach. She takes a hard edge and sharpens it. It is like her allegation that people who go to grad school are lazy.
It is not necessarily based upon fact but it creates an emotional response and that drives interest/traffic.
This generation is no better or worse at collaboration than any other generation. They merely have more tools to do it with.
Chloe
Hey JackB, nice to see you around.
Jack@TheJackB
Hi Chloe,
Old Traveling Jack gets around the blogosphere a bit. Me, the dog and my guitar, we wander from here to there and place to place.
Good to see you too.
Tony Si
Thanks for having the courage to post this podcast Steve.
This has helped me, 18 years old, just finished high school last year, is well aware of the debt crisis and the underlying causes of it is. Left University earlier this year to re-evaluate why I was doing the course I was doing. I was doing a course in Entrepreneurship because I didn’t want the 9-5 grind rat race and I always have business ideas but I never go through with them. But as I write, I realize Entrepreneurship is probably a 24/7 struggle. I don’t want that. I’m now like as Penelope tells it ‘lost’.
Thanks again Steve,
Tony.
Laura Rupp
It is great that you are taking time to carefully evaluate the direction you are going and searching for options. Also, finding good advice in the blogosphere.
I work with many young people (www.laurarupp.com) and too many just go along for a few years of college without much direction then find out they are miserable 10 years down the road. They haven’t truly considered what is right for them. Or, don’t know how to find that out. One thing I tell students is to not only think about what you like to do, but dig deeper and consider what characteristics you like about a certain job or any other interest you have. If you like writing is it because you enjoy telling a story or you like to be alone with your thoughts? One girl liked mock trial, not because the legal part was interesting, but because she liked the role playing! Knowing why you enjoy something can send you in a totally different direction than what you think. But, as Penelope made clear, you have to know yourself first!
Hang in there and stay with the search! You will find your way. Let me know if you want some help, I know how hard it is to figure things out.
Steve
Laura,
What you are saying is so true. One of the issues I have struggled with is figuring out what I love doing and why. I have never asked myself why I love to write. I’ve never asked myself why giving away money makes me feel so incredible. There are important questions and if this is an area of expertise for you, then yes, I would LOVE to chat with you about it!
Thanks again 🙂
Laura Rupp
Steve, I think the why is as important as the what, because not knowing why you do something can be its own obstacle. Without this awareness we become stuck, we just operate on auto-pilot, get in our own way, and all kinds of unproductive behaviors pop up. I think that is why Penelope said she knows you better than you do. Her familiarity with personality type seemed to inform that comment, but “types” are never the whole story. We can discuss how to take a deeper look at your motivations and preferences if you want, even though you may be operating on overload right now!
Steve
Hi Tony,
I hate to think that this interview alone has caused you to give up your idea of becoming an entrepreneur. Would you rather bust your ass working 16 hours days for 10 years building your dream or spend 45 years working 8 hour days working for someone else and having zero control over your time and income?
Yes, entrepreneurship is a struggle and there is a good chance you will fail, but so what. Believe me when I say this: working a 9-5 sucks more than you know. I don’t know you and maybe you aren’t meant to be a business owner,but don’t be lazy and give up before you even try because it sounds hard. Don’t do that.
Tony Si
Hey Steve,
It’s not because the struggle turns me away from entrepreneurship. It’s just, I’m a really good employee. Not that I love been told what to do, but I enjoy learning and being mentored by the person who’s in charge of me. I’m the sort of person that starts out following the instructions, listening in and learning. Then after I learn the ropes and get good at what I’m doing, I like to lead others and build them up the same way I did.
Not all jobs like you say ‘sucks’, sure 90% do suck, but I really think it comes down to the type of person you are. Some people whether in denial or genuinely are happy with their 9-5.
I know I’ve got some entrepreneurship blood in me, maybe it’s more intrapreneurship, all I know is that I get that magic SPARK feeling when you come up with an idea that improves things drastically!
Sure I could start up a business. There are loads of needs I know haven’t been met yet, but the products/services that come the business idea, just doesn’t push the passion button for me.
I think it’s when you really have a passion for something you love and you share that by starting a business, that’s when you can really persevere in the entrepreneurship roller coaster.
I’m going to go do a course in outdoor recreation and perhaps I work and gain industry experience then could start my own adventure business where I take people out into the wild and get them in touch with nature. I think that’s something missing in my generation.
Anyway, thanks gain Steve. And to Laura, thanks for the reassurance that I’m not doing something CRAZY for not going to University unlike many of my friends, until I have a specific goal or reason after I complete.
Kind Regards,
Tony, from Melbourne Australia 🙂
Steve
Well said Tony. I’m not sure most 18 year olds have this level of awareness about their career goals.
It sounds like you’ve got some pretty good ideas for your future and I’m a big believer in following your passions. I also did not go to college after high school and instead chose to travel the country.
I love that you aren’t going to college because you aren’t sure what you want to do. The majority of people will spend 4+ years in school without having idea what they actually want. The result is a degree in a field they aren’t really interested in. I’m still going to college at 40 and I know what I am going for now and can take the exact classes that improve the skills I want.
Good luck to you and keep in touch.
Laura Rupp
Tony, Not only are you not doing something crazy, I think you are doing something very smart! College is an expensive and time-consuming way to find out if it is right for you. Listen to that voice inside of you that is asking “is there something else out there for me?”! Doing the questioning and work now can make a big difference for you further down the line. I talk to SO many people who wish they had looked at more options and made different choices when they were your age. They just didn’t have the desire, understanding, or support to do things that weren’t the expectation of their peers. If you can explore, take the time and do so.
Don’t know how far you can go on your outdoor adventure, but here are 2 programs with some really amazing opportunities for young people. If they are not accessible to you maybe they can use an Australian liason! One is High Mountain Institute at http://www.hminet.org and Leap Now at http://www.leap.org. Some pretty cool alternatives to consider. There are lots of things out there, instead of using lots of energy trying to fit into the wrong box, use the same energy to see what might really be right for you! Stay with the search Tony!
Cordelia
I won’t say too much, because it’s all already been said (by the by, the outpouring of comments you’ve gotten to this is an encouraging testament to how much you HAVE connected with people so far and the fact that you have a strong readership behind you ready to support you in the next step).
I just wanted to say that I’ve had any number of nightmares that I’m due to get exactly this same kind of calling-out at any time. It’s SO tough living in the “change your life” blogosphere surrounded by people who’ve already done it, people who are trying to do it, and trying to balance your online persona with your action (or inaction) in real life. I often worry that I’m not doing enough IRL, that my blog is just a way to vent my feelings rather than actively taking steps to change things, etc., etc., etc.
I guess the point of this ramble is that I Feel For You and I am 100% behind you in whatever next steps you’re taking. It’s incredibly admirable that you took what most people would have crumbled under/gotten incredibly pissed about and openly shared it to use it as a change agent. I totally applaud you for your openness and honesty, and if you ever need to talk about what it’s like to try to figure this all out, I’d love to connect with you. I have a feeling we’re in some similar boats.
You rock for posting this, and you obviously have it in you to do something incredible. Don’t give up. We’re all believing in you!
Steve
Hey there Kelly,
I never would have imagined the level of support I’ve gotten here. I know I had a great community, but this is truly incredible. Most people have commended me for taking the ass whupping she gave me like a man, but that’s not what matters to me. What I’m really excited about is that people are seeing themselves in me and my situation and are now questioning themselves.
I completely agree with you about being in our niche where there are so many “been there” stories. I have no credibility in this niche since I have not gotten out of my job nor made more than a few bucks. All I have is my story. Apparently that is what people want though and I plan on making some big changes as a direct result of this interview and subsequent comments.
Ever since I found your blog, I’ve been a fan of yours. You have something special in you and I’m being honest when I say that I think you will be as successful as you choose someday.
Thanks so much for your kind words and kickass support!You are the one who rocks!!
Sarah Arrow
Wow! What a call.
I am glad it was you and not me, I am so hot tempered I would have shot the messenger and not benefited the lessons to be learned.
It seems you got wise advice from Penelope and Marcus, and are acting on it. Kudos to you for having the strength to do that.
Steve
Hi Sarah,
I am very slow to get angry or at least show it) so that wasn’t an issue for me. I was more so in shock at the conversation and felt like I was being personally attacked. I now realize that it wasn’t an attack at all, but rather her way of telling me to stop lying to myself and cut the bullshit.
Thanks for your support here..
Claudia
Yeah…. but she kind of WAS personally attacking you. She gave you priceless advice, but in a pretty rude way. I think it’s OK to have these two things at once – extremely useful advice, while taking issue with the method of communication. I just feel it’s bad manners to let the person you’re giving advice to – who is interviewing you because you’re kind of famous – be aware of the disgust you feel for him. It’s rude, and there was a classier road not taken.
emily
you know what – it’s really hard to have a realistic goal. im in project management and all I do all day is work with companies who have set unrealistic goals. it’s so much easier to set one that you know you probably won’t make – because then you can keep running after something.
you told penelope that yours was to get rich from your blog and she said – no, now pick another one. i understand that’s daunting to hear – especially because it’s not unrealistic for everyone – but it’s unrealistic for you. that doesn’t mean you can’t have a blog and that you can’t write though.
i think she sees you want to be a writer. see if you can take a listen to her again and see if you’d be ok doing the work that she describes to people for journalism. you like talking to people – but you like processing those thoughts on your own. that’s good for writers and lots of people would hire someone like that.
totally awesome post!
Steve
Emily,
I want to clarify that I did not say I wanted to get rich from my blog. I said my goal was to earn enough income from it so I can stay home with my daughters if I so choose. I actually stated that I have no desire to be rich, but rather have enough to live on comfortably.
If that was my goal, I wouldn’t say it’s unrealistic. If I set a specific goal and timeline, I don’t see why anyone couldn’t get rich from their blogs.
As far as what I envision myself doing, I love writing but I love interacting with people just as much. I don’t agree with her point of “there are no writers who are good with people”. That just is not true and I could name a dozen that are great at both.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
Danny @ Firepole Marketing
Hey Steve, props for posting this. I don’t agree with how it was done – she was borderline mean, and I don’t the need for or value in that. I finished the interview with a knot in my stomach. So yeah, sorry you had to go through that.
But yeah, that being said, I think it’s great that she called you out on some stuff, and even better that you listened – hard to do when it’s being presented in that way. And yeah, as you mentioned in some of the comments, it is her personality – I don’t think she meant ill by it.
Steve
Hey Danny,
I really don’t think she was being mean here. She is very direct and has no patience for wishy washy people or people who she thinks are full of shit. Apparently I fit both of these!
TO be honest, I wasn’t feeling bad or pissed, I was in shock. I was totally unprepared for the conversation and was trying very hard not to get drawn into a pissing competition. I didn’t agree with some of her comments, like about knowing me better than I know myself. She had never read my blog before and had no idea who I was.
I also don’t think her statement about there being no writers who are good with people and vice versa. That’s just plain not true. Still, I had respect for her and didn’t want to get into a war of words. I’m sure she would have ripped my apart anyway 🙂
Beth
All I can say is THANK you for suffering for our sake! I now have accepted my goal, realized I was dodging my goal… now I need to find the path that gets me there! I have to say I loved Penelope, she speaks my language! DIRECT and to the point!
Steve
🙂 Beth,
That’s fantastic that it woke you up and got you on the right path. I’d gladly take another beating like this if it helps people get their lives on track!
I also love people who are direct, just usually not this direct!
Jess Robinson
Steve –
I found my way here via Marcus’s blog. Your head’s probably still spinning but I have to say, you received a most generous gift from Penelope. I don’t know your situation (other than what I gathered from the interview), but rarely does a person come along in life, grab you by the scruff of the neck and force you to look into the mirror.
I thank you for posting the interview; I def saw myself in your shoes. And thank Penelope for having the integrity to drop the sugar coating.
Steve
Jess,
My head is really close to popping right now. I’m honestly overwhelmed by all the information, feedback, and thoughts going on right now. It’s a good thing though!
I consider her blunt honesty a gift and no doubt it will impact my future decisions regarding my blog (and my life).
Also, I’ve heard from so many people that they felt like she was talking to them and I love that. That’s what I was really hoping would happen, but had no idea if it would!
Leslie
I agree that writing is one goal that you can do without a huge network of friends. That is why it is so refreshing–it is just you and the blank page. What a relief.
Steve
Leslie,
I take it you’re not a people person 🙂
Leslie
I’m not a writer if that’s what you are asking. People person is another bs term that gets throw around on the internet. Cheers.
Chloe
If your goal is to write then you’re right, but if your goal is to have your writing read then you need other people somewhere along the line.
Most writing coaches I’ve tapped into say that writers today need social platforms.
Ruth
Wow, I think it’s so great that you posted this. I am only part way through but Penelope is being totally brutally helpful. I am very impressed that you actually put this out there.
I have been reading Penelope Trunk’s blog for years and just know that this is how she is and her perspective is hugely successful for her, but she is a unique personality.
She’s right that your blog will be awesome if you talk about this stuff. I’m going to start reading it because I’m struggling with some of the same issues. Good luck!
Steve
Ruth,
Brutally helpful, I like it!
Penelope is definitely one of a kind, that’s for sure. Had I been a long time reader, I might have better prepared for what happened, but I’m glad things turned out the way they did.
I’ve had to reevaluate my goals (yes I do actually have goals) and am planning on making some major changes.
Thanks for taking the time to listen to the interview, I appreciate it..
Annabel Candy, Get In the Hot Spot
Hi Steve,
You handled the conversation well. Penelope is a straight shooter. I spoke to her and heard some hard things about my writing being boring but I didn’t argue with her, I just took notes and tried to act on her advice.
So many interesting things to think about re my own scenario. I have too many goals but have set myself the goal of having a life (or lifestyle) no one else has.
I want it all. I know it will be hard but I believe it’s possible:)
Time will tell.
So glad we both had a wake up call from Penelope and wishing you all the best with or without your blog;)
Steve
Hi Annabel,
To be honest, I didn’t know much about Penelope other than what I’ve read in her blog. Given her propensity for discussing any and all topics, regardless if they are tactful, I imagined that she would be pretty straight forward. I was right.
She could have picked apart any part of my life and I still would have handled it the same way. Why? Because I have a lot of respect for her and her work.
So, you want it all, do you? As long as you truly believe it’s possible, it can happen.
I’m glad to hear that you got your slap in the face and are learning from it as well.
Thanks for showing your support.
Chloe
That had to hurt.
But now I know how it would go if I called her up and talked to her about my career problems.
Steve
Is that a good or bad thing, Chloe? Do you respond well to this type of advice?
Chloe
First of all, Steve, I’m afraid that you’re going to have to quit your job just to answer all your comments. So thanks for answering mine and inviting me to share my own load of bullshit.
You did much better than I would have. I’m afraid I would have been so focused on the fact that I wasn’t getting my interview and missed the fact that I was getting a personal life coach session with Penelope Trunk, for god’s sakes!
But maybe not. I’m a INFP, which means that I see the good in everything…eventually. But not usually until I’ve lost my temper at it.
As great as her advice was, I think you got blindsided. You were going for an interview for your readers and suddenly it became all about you. Few people would knowingly sign up for public life coaching from Penelope Trunk. And that’s what you got.
You’ve got guts to put it out and stand here raw and naked in front of everybody.
You and I are a lot alike. I also hate my job, so I started blogging in May as an escape route from feeling trapped. All the things Penelope said to you about your blog being an escape and an excuse are true for me. OUCH! I imagined myself sitting there and hearing someone say that to me, and it was very painful.
The truth is that the real things I’d need to do to change my job situation are just too inconvenient, so I don’t really want to do them. I just want my life to magically change.
I’ve been looking at blogging for awhile, even attended BlogHer in August, and one thing I know is that I do NOT want to be a niche affiliate blogger.
The truth is that I work 30 hours a week and make $50K, with benefits, vacation, holidays, sick time, etc. I don’t know what I was thinking, but maybe the thing I need to do is stop living in a fantasy world and be happy for what I have.
Since I attended BlogHer in August, I’ve been writing posts about the selling of blogging to bloggers on my own blog (how’s that for fitting the word “blog” the most times in a sentence?). I sat in a workshop for an entire day with Ree Drummond and I see very well what Penelope was saying about her. She works all the time now, and her life really isn’t her own anymore. She did sell her family.
People want what she has, but they don’t look at what she really did to get where she is. Do I want that instead of my 30 hours a week? I just don’t know. I don’t know if my family could take it.
I think I may need to stop living for some pie in the sky and face some harsh realities. That’s a hard pill for an INFP–a dreamer and an idealist–to swallow.
Steve
Chloe,
I LOVE this comment!
I actually feel like I need to take a day off from work to answer these comments. But I certainly don’t mind taking time off 🙂
In essence, it was life coaching raw and unedited and it was what I needed. Most people here have said that they don’t think they could have handled this conversation or wouldn’t have posted it, but I’m not so sure. I’m not doing anything great here, I’m just a regular dude who is in a self imposed prison and I have had enough!
You make a great point about not wanting to do the things you need to in order to quit your job. It’s uncomfortable and a pain in the ass. As much as it sucks, it IS easier to stay in a shitty job instead of stepping up our game to the level that we need to in order to make a huge shift.
As far as being happy with what you have, I think there are 2 sides to that. I think the most important thing to recognize is that if you are not happy in an area of your life (your job), why settle. Why accept that this is ok? It’s not. If you are hating this part of your life, and it is taking up a large part of your life, why throw in the towel and say “I should be happy with what I have”?
I personally think that’s bullshit. If you really want something, I say you should go after it. Get your family on board with your dreams. Believe me, they can handle it!
I’ve read your blog and watched that amazing video you have about yourself. Are you really going to stop pursuing your dreams and fall victim to becoming just a “pipe dreamer”
I see passion in your words and in your video. Life is way too short Chloe. When I read that you need to stop living a pie in the sky dream, I want to scream.
You are limiting yourself by thinking this way, seriously. You can create anything you want in life and I believe that 100%.
If you want to talk about this, hit me up on Skype at stephen.r.roy. Please don’t quit on what you really want..
Robin
Dude. I love what you told Chloe. I read her blog, too.
As for your interview – here’s what I think: Penelope is Simon Cowell and you just found out that you’re not a great singer. BUT that doesn’t mean that your voice isn’t worth hearing.
Steve
That’s awesome Robin! What a great comment 🙂
Wasn’t Chloe’s video great? I got choked up watching it..
Chloe
Steve, thank you. You have encouraged me today and helped me focus on what I should be doing.
I think Penelope was right on about setting goals. That was a hard message for me to hear even second-hand; I can’t imagine what it would have felt like to have heard it first-hand AND had it recorded. I still think you were brave for putting it out here for everyone to see.
I’ve have been thinking long and hard since I started blogging full-time what it would really take for me to be successful doing the sort of writing I do best. I’m not sure I’m up for it, but I think Penelope is 100% right about counting the cost. Everything has cost. Staying in a dead-end job we hate also costs.
BUT, Steve, I think she was completely wrong about writers not having people skills. That’s just bullshit. After spending some time reading your other writing, I think you are a good writer. I hear your voice ring true to me. AND it is obvious that you are a natural-born encourager of people.
I can’t help but notice that you took the time to respond to all of these posts with thoughtful responses. You took the time to actually go to my blog and watch my video and then come back here and make specific, encouraging comments to me. All while trying to figure it out yourself. That says a lot about your character to me. And also points to your gifts.
The waters of blogging are murky and deep and success is far from guaranteed. Writing is hard, hard, hard. That’s why I think most bloggers will fail. The work of blogging is much harder than most jobs and far less secure.
When listening to Ree Drummond at BlogHer, I realized that she wrote for YEARS for FREE with no discernible business plan (because there was no such thing as blogging for money). Yeah, now they want to trot her out so we can follow her example, but her example is unfollowable. Other than this: She writes well and she’s a genuinely nice person.
You are a good guy, Steve. I look forward to see how you work it all out.
Steve
Chloe,
I’m glad that you didn’t just throw in the towel there. I get your frustration but you can never give up on pursuing your happiness.
Staying in a situation you are miserable in definitely has a cost, and it’s a huge one! What value can you place on your life? How many years do we have to waste doing things we hate before we realize that time is our greatest asset?
As far as the writer/people person conversation, I am in full agreement with you. There are many, many people who excel at both. I knew that if I would have started in on that conversation, she would have ripped me up even further and I didn’t want to go there.
As far as being a natural born encourager, I don’t know about all that. I can only speak from experience in grinding out year after year doing things that made me unhappy and I am very passionate about helping people avoid that themselves.
Responding is the very least I can do here. All these people have taken their time to listen to the interview, read my post, and write a thoughtful comment. I’m very lucky to be a part of something that people actually care about this much. And I love the interaction 🙂
I do have a few questions about your video though. Your last sentence says “and she lived happily ever after”. You clearly are not happy with certain parts of your life (big parts like your job). Did you create that video during a happier time? Are you trying to keep that part of your personal life out of the blog? Can you live happily ever after if you stay in your current job?
Chloe
Steve, we’ve run out of reply boxes, so I had to reply here.
It does seem like a contradiction, huh? But it isn’t. I am overall very happy with my life, I have a good marriage, annual trips to Europe, great friends (as you can tell), and my kids are doing well.
Except this one little area where I feel trapped. I seem to have a talent for building boxes where I trap myself and then have to figure out how to get out. It’s my gift.
I don’t think happiness is a destination anymore. It isn’t like one day I’m going to wake up and be deliriously happy with every corner of my life from that day forward. There is no life-fix like that and I think that’s one thing Penelope was saying to you. We might think that one thing is the answer to our problems, but that answer only brings with it a new set of problems.
Ree is majorly successful, but at what cost to her family? Time will tell.
And there is no permanent answer to contentment. Every day I’m going to have to make a commitment to making the choices that will lead to contentment. As one area gets cleaned up another area comes to my attention.
When I was so deeply depressed, I couldn’t even think about how unsatisfying my job is. I was in survival mode. It wasn’t until I came out of that depression that I saw other areas of my life that I need to change.
I work for a crazy corporation, or as my friend, Anne, and I like to call it: The Death Star.
Imagine you’re just a little Storm Trooper working on the Death Star. You love your kids, you love your annual summer vaca to Endor, but, Hell, you work on effing Death Star! How happy can you really be with Darth as your boss?
Yeah, you are getting by. The Death Star dental plan isn’t too bad, but you can only ignore the obvious for so long before you have to face the facts: you’re working for the side of evil and that just won’t do. No matter how well your life seems to be working, you can’t work on the Death Star for a living.
Your whole isn’t in the crapper just because you work on the Death Star, but it definitely gnaws and eventually you need to get out and do something else, right?
And that’s where I am. Because I am happy in my life is the very reason that I cannot tolerate being a Storm Trooper anymore. Only unhappy people stay trapped in unhappiness. Inherently happy people always seek a way out of misery.
As far as my crisis of blogging? Here’s the thing: I like to write, but, you know, writing isn’t exactly like an easy answer either. Writing is like deciding to change your job on the Death Star to working on Tatooine. Yeah, Tatooine isn’t the Death Star, but it’s freaking Tatooine!
Then you think, “Hey, maybe the Death Star isn’t so bad.”
And then Penelope Trunk comes along and tells you to use the Force or get off of the fucking pot.
Steve
Chloe,
I think I need a whole separate comment section for you!
Actually this last comment put my server over the edge and crashed my blog. 🙂
It’s interesting that you say “this one little area in my life”. Since when is spending 1500 hours a year doing something “little”? You’ve got a loving family, a good life, and a sweet vacation (I’m jealous). That’s fantastic but why settle for the job? I’m sure you have plenty of skills that could be put to good use. Just imagine if you got paid for writing long comments ! 🙂
I don’t think my life will be all sunshine and butterflies when I quit my job, but right now it is affecting my entire life. My health, relationships, and sanity. So yes, I know that my life will be better without it. What about yours?
The Death Star-that’s hilarious. Well,not to you…
I don’t know your personal story (well, a little) so it’s hard to say “quit your job” or “follow your passions”. More than anything, it just upsets me to see a good person like yourself doing something you hate. Listen to one of Steve Jobs speeches and you’ll come to appreciate the importance of so ending your limited time wisely. Read “The Last Lecture” for another wake up call.
Now, if writing isn’t “your thing” either, what are you passionate about?
All I know is that unless you’re Darth Vader, you need to get the fuck off of The Death Star.
Just keep your eyes open for Yoda because you never know when the teacher will appear….
p.s. Are we nerds or what?!?
Chloe
roflol. Dude, I’m sorry about your server. I’ll try to be briefer since I’m not sure that “chatting with Chloe” is much of a niche, but it certainly has been encouraging for me. I’ve long wondered what it would be like to talk with Penelope Trunk about my career woes and I got to do it vicariously through you. That was very valuable, so thank you.
Steve, I do think you are right. Working on the Death Star is no fucking way to live, but Penelope did cause me pause with her “you gotta work somewhere for 8 hours a day” comment.
But, since I’m not Darth Vader, and I am just not suited for the dark side, being as I’m blonde and have a wicked sense of humor and all, staying isn’t a real option. More like a temptation, really. But not an option. I am going to get out of this; it’s just a matter of how. And that I don’t know yet.
It has been so fun to talk this out with you, Steve. I really can’t wait to see where you go.
Steve
Chloe,
I was kidding about the server issue 🙂 Your comments are awesome !
If you’re truly interested in speaking with Penelope, why not contact her? She might very well give you some time.
Do you think your blog might a viable option at some point as a means to leave your job? Also, I sent you an email with a few questions about this. Did you get it?
Stan Faryna
Penelope Trunk tells you: add value to people’s lives.
And, wow, did she give you value.
Even before she gets into you, your disappointment with her honesty was loud. I could hear your fear, resentment, and reluctance in your tone, your pauses, and words.
That you’ve shared this podcast with us is awesome, Steve. That you’ve made yourself vulnerable and opened yourself to honesty is awesome.
So, what is your real goal? Maybe, you have spelled it out and I didn’t see it, but your goal should have been spelled out in the first paragraph of this post.
What are you making happen to move you closer to that goal?
What risks are you taking, today?
I want to see you make that change, Steve. I want to see you succeed to be honest, to be true, and to live-wholeheartedly. Do amazing things!
P.S. Penelope Trunk rocks!
Recently on my blog: The Final Speech of the Great Dictator by Sir Charles Chaplin http://wp.me/pbg0R-qG
Steve
Stan,
Penelope definitely added value to our conversation and in turn, my life. I’m not sure it was disappointment you were hearing, but rather shock. I was also reluctant to get into a heated discussion and did feel as though she was calling me out a bit unjustly. Looking back on it, she was being fair and honest and it’s exactly what I needed to hear although I didn’t want to hear it.
Other than answering all these comments, I have been spending most of time thinking about my real goals planning for a big step forward. I will be making some big changes here soon and am working on the details.
Thanks for the support and the vote of confidence!
Steve
Thanks for stopping by and leaving a comment B.
I’m beginning to realize the power this interview has had and how much it is helping people realize their own issues. It’s awesome that this worked out like this and I’m so thankful to Penelope for being so honest.
Anne
Steve, I’m Chloe’s friend and I love what you said to her.
She was born to dream, to rage, to live a big life.
The thought of her giving up a passion, and try to accept business as usual on the Death Star makes me beyond sad.
Maybe she’s not on the right path yet, but all I know is she needs to keep on moving forward.
Steve
Anne,
I don’t know Chloe but judging from her blog and video, I would think the same thing. I hate hearing things like that. That is so sad to me when people feel like the way she does. I hope to hear back from her and get her thoughts.
Thanks for supporting her here, that’s a good friend..
Srinivas
Steve,
I got wind of this interview this morning because I was interviewing Danny Inny and he told me about it. I had heard quite a bit about it and read through the comments before I started to listen. I’ve done tons of interviews so let me say you handled yourself quite well. It definitely made me feel uncomfortable at times and I think she was really tough on you. But, as some of the other commenters have said maybe it was exactly the wakeup call you needed.
While I don’t agree with everything she said or the way she went about things, you probably got an insane amount of value out of this. It took guts to hang in there as long as you did considering what a tough guest she was.
Steve
Srini,
Thanks for stopping by! I was thinking about how you would have handled that same call.
It was not a fun call, but I have a lot of respect for her. At the time, I didn’t realize just how valuable this would turn out to be and I’m glad it happened the way it did.
And yes, it was the wake up call I needed. Actually, if it weren’t for Marcus’ email and the subsequent comments, I’m not sure I would have seen exactly how powerful this was.
People have come out of the woodwork to support me here and it’s been awesome, although my fingers are getting tired from answering all these comments 🙂
Saul Fleischman @applications development Japan
I listened to the podcast, and I also searched for and found the Myers Briggs Test that Penelope Trunk referred to. What I keep hearing from Steve – and I can completely relate to – is lack of focus in what Steve would like to do. Penelope spoke of selecting a life you would like to have and doing that which gets you that life, and I
I feel for Steve. Some of us are stuck. What Penelope does not recognize is that some of us go to the Myers Briggs Test – and discover that we CANNOT choose A or B, the only answer choices for the questions…
We need help with focus. That is not “dishonesty!”
I really do not care for Penelope’s stance and stating that we are lying to ourselves when we put time into a project – such as a blog – while committing the deadly sin of not knowing how we are going to make money. Some people need help with this, and more than being shoved over to a test that constrains us to answering ‘A’ or ‘B.’ Am I unworthy of getting help with my career – because I look at A and B… back to A… and I am certain: no, neither are “me.”
Steve
Hi Saul,
I don’t necessarily agree with what Penelope said about having to have someone’s life in order to have their business. I don’t think I need to be a single, world traveling, wine drinking person in order to have a business similar to Ash Ambirge’s. Why can you or I have a business that’s like that (other than the obvious reasons like she is a killer marketer and writer)?
I hear what you’re saying about the whole “lying to yourself” thing. She kept saying that I was lying, but I’ve never felt like I was. I’ll readily admit that I’m unclear about my goals with regards to this blog, yes. But I’m not a liar.
Kristi Hines
Honestly, I give you credit for publicly saying you’re looking to quit your job. This is my first visit here, and I have no idea about the industry you’re in, but if I were to say something like that on my blog, my boss would know within 24 hours, if that long. So kudos to that.
I think that while a blog may not be a business, it can be something that leads you in the right direction of what you would want to do in an online business. I’ve been at it for three years and have just found that the area I will be most successful in is writing between freelance writing and creating my own eBooks. But I wouldn’t have known that if I hadn’t blogged for awhile, tried out affiliate marketing, created a bunch of puny Adsense sites, and messed around with other monetizing strategies.
While you may not get out of your job as quickly as you like, I’m sure that through blogging you will learn a lot more about yourself, what you like, what you don’t, and then be able to figure out exactly what you want to do, make a plan, and then you’ll be able to get out of that job!
Steve
Hi Kristi,
I actually love your blog and am glad that you took the time to share your thoughts with me here.
I work in finance and if my boss were to find this, then it would be lights out for me as well. I take that risk anyway because I feel like I have to share my passion with people and also because he is computer illiterate and almost certainly never find this blog.
I spent quite a while thinking that my blog would be my business, but have come to understand that it is simply a platform for other things. My whole idea was to just keep learning, writing, and building community and eventually I would discover what exactly I wanted to do with all of this. That day never came and I am working on these things now.
I plan to start creating instead of just thinking. I think the experience I gain from my successes and failures will help me discover what I am best at and where I want to spend my time.
Thanks 🙂
Ant
Hey steve, have you spoken to Penelope since? if so whats been said!?!?!!?
Props for posting the interview! it rockeD!!!
Steve
Ant,
I have touched base with her a few times via email since the interview. Here’s what she has said:
1. She confirmed that given my personality type of ISFJ, I am in fact, not a writer. ( I disagree though)
2. She said she liked my post and linked to the interview in here latest blog post. You can read that here.
3. She thought that turning the interview into a killer guest post for a popular blog would be a good idea. This was actually Danny Iny’s idea to do this. My brain is fried and it never crossed my mind to try and leverage the popularity of this thing.
Honestly, I was really hoping she would come and comment on my blog, but she’s a busy woman and I can’t hold it against her.
Mark
Thats a hard interview to listen to, like watching a geek getting beaten up in a bar fight by a load of jocks. 🙂
None the less it was as incredibly educational experience…. I do agree with you that a blog can be a platform but please don’t tell Penelope
Dean Martin
You’re right Mark!
Great interview… scary lady 🙂
I’ll steer clear of her both in an interview and at the bar. I’m pretty sure she could take me at either place.
Steve
That’s funny, Mark. Sort of. Actually I WAS the geek getting beaten up by the jocks 25 years ago..
As far as this comment, I’m sending it to her right now with your email address. Prepare for battle!! 🙂
Colin Chia
Hey Steve,
AWESOME interview dude 🙂 this has got to be by far one of the best 36 minutes JAM packed with action I’ve heard on a call for a LONGTIME!
You either love her or you hate her… but, you really do have to commend her for setting it straight on “The Importance of GOAL SETTING” 🙂 it’s GOLDEN!
Business + Life = go hand in hand!
I definitely agree that this was somewhat of a Simon Cowell take on your BLOG, which for any blogger or entrepreneur trying to make it online is PRICELESS! 😀 (if you can read between the lines and learn the lessons, which I think you will – then you can take a lot out of it)
First time I’ve cross your BLOG, will definitely share this one it’s an interview packed with goodies’n’a few giggles too (at your expense, but I respect you for handling the situation the way you did) 😉 it’s was EPIC!
All the best buddy,
Colin 😀
Live. Love. Laugh.
Steve
Hey Colin,
Glad you liked the interview!
As far as what she said and what I learned, it was invaluable. And not just for me, but for many others.
I don’t mind the Simon Cowell approach as long as you have the credibility to back it up. And she does.
Thanks for your support, man. I appreciate it.
Conni
Penelope is bloody smart. Listen to her closely and take her advice. That’s all I have to say about this. Good luck!
(You could be the guy that gets out of a boring, job-hating, having-no-vision life while having a family / or child. Write a blog about that. Just be more specific!)
Steve
Conni,
That’s the plan! 🙂
And yes, Penelope is as sharp as they come..
Jen Lockard
I can’t stand watching shows like American Idol because I feel so poorly for the performers when they get their hats handed to them. Ditto karaoke. This was about 20 times worse than that (and that’s just how it was for me).
And yet…
She’s right. You can’t get what you want unless you know exactly what you want to begin with—especially since everyone’s journey is different, and there is no one road map to success.
Thank you for being brave enough to share this, because I need to firm up some of my own spongey-ness. If you keep sharing stuff like this, the readers will come.
Steve
Jen,
You’re definitely not the first person to say how brutal the interview was! I guess I don’t see it that way. It was pretty harsh, but direct. She is a no bullshit type person and I asked for her opinion on something she feels strongly about.
As far as your spongey-ness, I’m glad to hear that this got you thinking about what you need to do!
Thanks for the support 🙂
Rita
This was an excellent interview. I think she was spot on. Her focus on you is really a reality check for all of us.
I’m reminded by one of the most powerful books I’ve ever read, called Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins. I think it would be a great book for you to read, and blog about your journey going through his book. I think this interview was a perfect kick off.
Steve
Hi Rita,
Thanks for listening! I actually own the book and have read it, although it’s been many years since.
I think it might be time to take it out again 🙂
Constantin Gabor
First, I appreciate your honesty! You shared this phone call so you kinda “exposed yourself” as most people will call it.
The silly thing is, you invited Penelope here to teach us something and she did anything but that…
She doesn’t seem to be good with people and she doesn’t seem to have any kind of empathy. It amazes me how perfect she is – I mean, there must have been some times of plateau and doubt in her life but maybe I’m wrong.
Knowing exactly what top do with your life is not an easy question to answer. This is a FACT! Why rip off on someone for this immutable fact of life?!
Very few people are fortunate to actually follow the right path to success and happiness right from the get go (like her I guess) and we’d like to be thought and inspired by those people.
Don’t know much about her background but my question is: would she treat her dad or mom the same in a similar interview? Maybe her parents were unhappy working for the Man and they never had anyone to teach them different.
The very fact that you try to do something is better than nothing. She undervalues that.
Maybe you’re somewhat unhappy at this point in your life. It’s okay – you’ll figure it out.
Maybe we’ve had the privilege of listening to a woman that was always on top of her world and always knew what she wanted. Hell, I feel like listening to someone else than that.
I’m sure she’s a pro but she didn’t give us any actionable advice (apart from knowing what to do first).
BTW – Ogilvy in one of his books said something like “I did all sorts of things (being a cook, selling sewing machines, cultivating tobacco), not knowing what to do with my life until I discovered advertising at the age of 38”. Now that’s a human being.
She’s fortunate she got it figured out early. We’re not all like that. And I expect a pro like her to know that.
Here’s for figuring it out!!!! Cheers!
Lauryn Doll
1. I’m glad comments aren’t locked out on this post.
2. Wow. She verbally sodomized you. With authority.
3. I felt verbally sodomized.
4. But despite 2 and 3, I have to say thank you for posting this unedited podcast with bravery — and letting it ruminate. The truth is, she’s completely correct – maybe not in every little thing she said to you specifically as it relates to all of your story and situation – but of the blogosphere in general with these crappy make money online blog and internet marketing models and shams.
What I loved most about her delivery is how raw and honest she was. I can be just as raw and cut to the chase at times, and people tell me to scale back but I see that if you have a message … it doesn’t matter how it’s delivered as long as the right audience gets it.
She was completely right about the need to really know what it is you want and how you want to achieve it. She was completely honest about the need for bloggers who want to make it to stop giving in to these excuses they continue to create for themselves, and specifically find an icon and run with it. If you want to write, you’re going to write. If you want to make an impact, you’re going to do it, no matter how many people are behind you.
The distinction I tell people about making a name for themselves online is finding their unique strength and allowing themselves vulnerability. Penelope echoed this by telling you — and us — how she’s not afraid to look stupid when it happens… and that we cannot be vague and focus on telling others what to do. We have to BE the voice of uniqueness… and BE the ones we focus our blogs and our stories around — and find a way to do so in a meaningful manner that impacts the audience we draw.
The largest takeaway here?
“You need to dazzle them with honesty and brilliance… you can’t baffle them with smoke, mirrors and bullshit.”
Steve
Lauryn,
1. Are you kidding? And miss out on this incredible discussion!
2. Yea she did
3. I hear that a lot 🙂
4. Her brutal honesty was exactly what I needed to hear and apparently what many others needed as well! I had been living in sort of a fantasy world, thinking my blog would just somehow turn itself into a business. Without goals, there is no way to for me to succeed. I thought I had goals but clearly I was wrong.
As for the direction of this blog, things will be changing. Less talk, more action! I’ve got some soul searching to do along with a thousand other things.
I’ve never tried to fool anyone with smoke and mirrors. Well, anyone except myself.
Honesty and brilliance, I love it.
Thanks for the awesome comment!
Christina whitehurst
One thing penelope said that was so spot on, no one wants to hear about how great you are. This is so true. Like robin williams character said in good will hunting “the flaws are the good stuff”. the flaws are what make us unique, its the stuff that make us special.
Steve
Christina,
You touch on a great point here. So many people try to look successful without first achieving it. I honestly feel like I have never tried to portray anything I’m not, but Penelope’s point was so true. People want to see the realness in others, not some bs “I’m successful and here’s how I can teach you how to be too” attitude.
By the way, Good Will Hunting, one of the best movies EVER!!
Mike Parris
This is easily the best podcast or interview about making money on the internet I have ever heard. Penelope is brilliant. No nonsense. I think uncompromising reality is the kindest way to approach advice because you can’t help people based on fantasy and lack of realism. Thank you Steve for accepting Penelope’s truth on the behalf of the listener. She pushed you off balance because you weren’t balanced in the first place, and your accepting it shows you for a true person and and a good person because you were willing to hear her without getting enraged and indignant. If I ever met you I feel I could connect with and like you genuinely as a result of this interview. Thank you so much for helping her bring this truth into the world.
Steve
Mike,
That’s quite a compliment!
I know I have a lot to learn as apparently was living in a fantasy world by thinking that continuing what I was doing was going to bring me closer to my goals (or lack of them).
Penelope gave me the kick in the ass I desperately needed and am so thankful for that.
Not only have I learned a lot about myself and the bullshit I am telling myself, but so many others have also begun questioning themselves. And that’s a great thing.
Richard G Lewis
One of the most entertaining and yet educational blogs I’ve experienced in a long time. I admire you balls for publishing it and I hope it defines a new beginning for you.
Steve
Thanks Richard, I appreciate that. And yes, this IS a new beginning for me!
Steve
David, while I appreciate your support here, I must say that I am not too happy about your post. It’s just plain insulting to me. I understand that you’re trying to get your point across, but you don’t know me or anything about my life other than the 36 minutes you just listened to. I know you weren’t attacking me personally in your post and are just trying to get your point across, but I think it is worded very poorly.
I don’t mind getting slammed by an expert like Penelope when I can learn from it, but it’s not cool to do it on your blog.
Karen Siwak
Was Penelope off-base with her comments? Not in a million light years. Was it incredibly painful to listen to? Yes, so I can only imagine how raw and challenging it must have been to be on the receiving end of her analysis. She squeezed a year’s worth of career coaching into 30 minutes, and it may take you weeks and months for you to process everything that she told you. But if you make the time to process it, you’ll look back on this interview as the turning point in your career. Thank you for posting it in its entirety.
Steve
Hi there Karen,
After the interview ended, I was in shock. I didn’t know what just happened. What started as a normal interview turned into an ass kicking and I was totally caught off guard.
When I look at it now, it was the perfect coaching session for me. I needed to hear that or I still would be doing the same stuff I was before.
She definitely knows her shit, I’ll giver her that.
The feedback and support I’ve received in the wake of the interview has impacted me deeply and my course has been changed.
The thing I’m most happy about is that so many other people have found value in the call. I wasn’t sure it would be of interest, but I was so wrong.
Louise Fletcher
Wow! That was fantastic to listen to, although hard as well because I felt bad for you (but I felt better knowing that you got over your upset). But she was sooooo right. That’s probably the most useful thing you’ve ever posted on your blog – and I don’t say that as a dig at you, but rather as a compliment for your courage and honesty.
If your blog is now about your true honest journey to find your path in life, it will be amazing reading.
Steve
Louise,
I was never really upset so much as shocked. I was in disagreement with some of her points (and still am), but the message was what mattered most. She has done me and many others a great service and I’m very thankful for that.
Judging from the comments and emails I’ve received, I’d say you were right about this being the most useful thing I’ve posted.
This is just the beginning for me and I hope you will share in the experience with me 🙂
Angela
That was the best advice possible for ALL would-be blog entrepreneurs.
Are you a writer? Are you a people person? What do you want your working hours to look like? What are you actually going to DO to earn a living? And how much money do you need to flip your job off? Don’t dodge the damn questions with political redirects and fluffy insubstantial verbosity. Who are you, what do you want to do and how are you going to do it?
Steve for what its worth you did brilliantly not to tell Penelope to take a long walk off a short pier because inviting suggestions for your career is not exactly the same as inviting a full blown intervention!
On the other hand, as you know, Penelope gifted you and many Bloggers a no-BS roundkick to the head – of the highest, most beneficial quality.
And she was committed to see the conversation through to the end.
She is indeed a coach, despite her protest otherwise. A coach with dodgy people skills perhaps, but that, it appears, is her genius.
Steve
Angela,
I’ll tell you one thing, that interview changed my entire perspective on blogging. I thought I was doing just fine before Penelope and I had that conversation, but soon realized that I didn’t have a clue.
It was a great gift for me and many others and it has put me on a new path.
Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to listen..
Woody Quinones
Steve,
Thank you for posting the podcast.
If you think Penelope was hard on you, try being raised by a Biker Chick Mother. They are not as carefree as the movies portray them.
When my mother gave me harsh and I mean berated criticism her all to favorite comeback to me was this:
“Suck it up, walk it off, be a man! Now get the hell out of my sight”
Penelope did you a favor by bringing your project into focus. Now start getting products and services listed on your site. If this site isn’t making you money not only is it a time suck it is also a money pit.
The other thing stop letting others direct how you want you site to go. If you want to put up a paid membership site then by all means do it. Screw those who are not interested.
Remember, when a prospect isn’t interested then that is telling you that they have disqualified themselves and you don’t want them.
So what if the only member is you, you have to build it and stay the course.
I’ve been in business long before the Internet was a word and it still amazes me how many of you young folks won’t grab the bull by the horns and just ride it out.
Every little criticism cripples your forward progress.
Now before you go on about being trapped with children here’s my life.
Married to my wife 24 almost 25 years. We raised 5 children on my income alone. My net salary was $35,000-$40,000 a year. One year I believe I reached net $81,000. I was a tradesmen.
I made my wife stay home so our 5 children wouldn’t be in daycare and raised by anyone else. Both of us homeschooled our children for 15 years. We did without a lot of things.
In those 24+ years I’ve started 4 businesses and sold 3 of them. We’ve lived in different parts of the US. I wrote a home study course and it still sells online at http://www.MyLittleWhiteMug.com
I’m a published author to the physical security industry and have a website http://www.LocksmithMarketing.com where I teach locksmiths and security professionals how to market themselves and I sell them promotional products to promote themselves, their business and their services.
So tell me how soon will you take control, set that goal and work at making it happen?
BTW I never went to college. I’ve been busy making money because at the end of the day that’s all that matters. Keeping the bills paid, investing in my family’s future and continually self-education.
Peace and Success to you.
Steve
Woody,
Yea, that sounds pretty hardcore, man. I was raised in a pretty loving environment, so I can’t relate to your upbringing.
You do have a great point and one that hasn’t been brought up before. I haven’t been firm up to this point as far as telling my audience what I’m doing. I have been asking. There are a few schools of thought on this though. Many bloggers will tell you that you need to find out what your audience wants and then give it to them. That was my plan with my surveys. The other thought is that you create something that will weed out the people who will not buy from you and focus on the ones who will.
You definitely sound like a throw back. You “made” your wife stay home? Maybe that was acceptable in your generation, but that really doesn’t fly now. You do seem to have had success and that’s great for you. Everyone is different and has different risk tolerances, and obviously we are pretty far off here.
Thanks for your comment.
Woody Quinones
Steve,
You said:
“You definitely sound like a throw back. You “made” your wife stay home? Maybe that was acceptable in your generation, but that really doesn’t fly now.”
Really, I’ll tell my wife who started back to work last year and I set her up in her own business. Also our last daughter just graduated high school level of homeschooling last June.
So you’re saying that a year ago was my generation? Interesting.
Peace and Success to you
Hector Avellaneda
Steve.. dude! You totally rock for sharing this!
I was about to comment on your last post and you mentioned this interview and something told me to come back and listen.
I loved this interview because it was so real and uncut!
Listen, I hope you didn’t take her comments the wrong way, although some if it was pretty heated, I am 100% confident that she offered her feedback with nothing but good intentions
I think not on you, but myself and SOOOOOOOOO many other people are really going to learn so much from this interview.
Her thoughts on WHAT people really want to see and follow, which is what you are doing to become an entrepreneur and learn from it, were actually confirmed.
One of the reasons why I now only talk about becoming an entrepreneur but also started a direct sales business and am chronicling my success/failures.
Anyway, this is what I think of Penelope – she is very direct (no BS), highly intuitive and she is results oriented.
She’s right Steve!
Our blogs should not be our businesses, similar to the conversation we had a few weeks back.
Listen, take this conversation, stop hating your job (similar to what I talk about in my guest post) because all that does is create negative affirmations in your subconscious mind, and get to work.
Produce products (which I know you are now doing.. Sweeet) and learn to market them because in the end the only thing that does matter is …… did you meet your business goals and did you meet your income goals!
Keep investing in yourself as an entrepreneur and keep growing and remember that the only way to fail is to QUIT or not have goals (as Penelope mentioned 😉 )
Robin Dickinson
Hi Steve,
I thought you handled the ‘interview’ very well.
Polarising people as either x or y is just one view of the world. In my 20 years as an entrepreneur, from a family of entrepreneurs, all I have learned is that when it comes to people and business opportunities, anything is possible.
For example, my brother has a young family, works a 60 hour week as an employee in a company, and also runs a very successful Internet-based business in his ‘spare’ time. He is a wonderful family man and he still finds time to ring me every day.
He is not a keyword nor SEO expert. He is not a writer. He is not a ‘people’ person. He just works his craft and works it to the best of his abilities.
Penelope’s view is just one view of the world. There are many others, equally as valid – but the one that really counts, Steve, is yours.
I wish you every success.
Robin
Steve
Robin,
I appreciate the compliment.
I recognize that Penelope’s opinion is just a single point of view but it was one that I needed to hear. My view of the world is far different from hers, but in order to reach my goals, I feel like I need to learn from those who are where I want to be. My vision is is very far from my reality right now and I have an incredible amount of work to do before I will get there.
And like your brother, I’m not sure I would label myself either. I’m good at multiple things and am working on figuring out how to best use my strengths.
Chris Stott
It is absolutely brilliant that you shared this.
Steve, there are so many people in the same camp as you. Myself included. We all need that wake up call and by putting this out there you are helping everyone.
Well done.
Steve
Thanks Chris,
I didn’t realize the impact it would have on people and I’m SO glad I decided to post this. I wasn’t sure people would even want to hear it to be honest. I love that it’s waking people up and challenging them to ask the important questions.
Chris Stott
I’m still thinking about it.
We should riff it out on Skype some time my fellow Triberr 🙂 – got some ideas for ya.
Steve
Sounds good Chris, let’s do it!
Catherine White
Thank you for this interview Steve, you handled the hot seat with great finesse.
I’m inclined to agree with most of what Ms Trunk has to say, in particular, the difference between writing and coaching. It was the love of writing that started me blogging as an early adopter.
However, the management of a fast growing community wore me down. I want to write, not have my time sucked up posting unending comments on other blogs, or hours writing blogs that wern’t generating income.
I don’t believe a blog is a means to a revenue end, but it’s certainly one way of showcasing one’s writing, marketing, or artistic skills.
Thanks for one of the most interesting podcasts I’ve heard in years. Great stuff.
Cheers
Catherine
Steve
Hi Catherine,
Well, the seat definitely got hot! That’s great that you figured out what you didn’t want. What do you do now? Do you still blog?
I’ve struggled with the idea that a blog isn’t a business notion, but you’re right, it’s a platform or showcase for something else.
Thanks for the nice compliment by the way 🙂
Jayne Kopp
HI Steve, well, first of all, (gathering thoughts here 🙂 )… hats off to you for posting this… it was painfully perfect!
As a matter of fact I have been drafting a post on this topic for a while and will link to your post as it’s a perfect compliment to what I’m trying to get across.
If it makes you feel better… I know what you want… and know you know your BIG WHY… but you had not become clear YET on exactly HOW to achieve the desired result.
I think many of us have been in that same boat. I’ve been in and out of it for the last few years… started by promoting a biz opp, did well, then a few things changed, tried something else… couldn’t find where I needed to be.
At the end of the day Steve, its about a lightbulb moment and sometimes we don’t get to the switch for a while.
Instead you flounder around with foggy goals.. you know what you want to do but can’t put your finger on it.
Its about getting ‘clear’… and it’s not easy. It means you need to sit quietly and think… even if it takes days… but you sometimes have to be still long enough to let the pieces fall into place.
Whats really weird is deep inside your subconscious, you know that you don’t know exactly where you need to be but don’t address it. It sometimes does take someone else to call you out for the penny to drop and for you to embrace the reality.
I recently managed to get clear on my next step… and my GOSH… I can’t even begin to tell you how relieved and motivated I am… and how quickly things have started to change!!
I’ve been hammering away on a blog for a year and made lots of ‘blogging’ friends, made a few profits here and there but knew it wasn’t what I really needed.
Like you I needed more. I realized it’s no good doing something over and over again getting minimal results. You need to change it up a bit… and get clear on how… and make it count.
I’ll tell you Steve that once you’re over this hill, you start to pick up speed and I think this just might be the ‘leg up’ you’ve been needing right when it was supposed to happen for you.
I don’t know Penelope.. haven’t read her blog (yet). She is obviously as blunt as they come, yet sharp as a rock. Her communication style ‘stings’… and that’s ‘good’ sometimes.
Underneath she is probably softer than she seems but she calls it as she sees it.
I’m not one of those people… but we’re all different and that’s what makes the world go round.
This, although uncomfortable for you has probably done you a favour. (You realize that already). Sometimes hearing our shortfalls propels us to make the next step to prove we can.
I believe you are closer than you think. This last year was not wasted. I am sure you have learned a lot as far as blogging, SEO, Networking.
Now with the skills you have, you can share the things you know. (We always know more than we think).
This could turn into a blog post… so I’ll end it here.
Steve… I wish you the absolute best. Its your turn to make waves now!
Please keep us posted as to how you use this butt-kicking.
Its all good. 😉
Jayne
Steve
Jayne,
You hit this right on the head here. I do have my “why”, but not necessarily my “how”. I’m glad you can see this. With so many comments here, I’ve heard from a number of people who think I have no clue at all! I really don’t think that’s the case at all.
I feel like I had a light switch come on with regards to the message of my blog, but not with what I am going to do to make money. I just got back from Vegas and didn’t have much of an opportunity to reflect on the important questions I need to be asking myself.
I really feel like when I carve out a specific plan based on my goals, I’ll be moving forward and will be able to focus so much more. I know I haven’t wasted a year and wouldn’t change it if I could. I feel like I’ve been a success so far, just not in terms of money.
I’ve learned SO much about this world and I absolutely love it! When I started a year ago, I knew virtually nothing about blogging. I’m not an expert in this arena by any means, but have grown and learned a vast amount in that time.
Thank you so much for this comment, it was really wonderful to read. I feel like you “get me” and that’s a great feeling 🙂
Rachel
Penelope’s right.
Jayne Kopp
Steve, I just sat down after the kids are tucked in (you see a similarity here? 🙂 ) and I just got your response.
I have been thinking about you on and off all weekend just because I DO get you 100%. I am glad I was able to get that across and that you picked up on it.
I doubt you know this, but I am a coach now… but I also have a coach who is about as dry as a popcorn fart. He is also well known and very successful online… and cost a pretty penny I might add.
I learned a lot from him that only really boiled down to a couple of things and it was basically ‘sharing what we know’… and as you already know you have learned a lot these last few months since blogging and know 100% more than those who are starting.
I mean, look at the flock of blinking comments?? I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many comments in one place! LOL
Despite what Penelope says (she’s no God… she’s only human after all) – your knowledge is worth something.
Your blog is an excellent ‘brand’ for you and you can do something with that.
Now you’re back from Vegas try to take some time to decide how you’re going to monetize your skill.
If you would like to toss it around or bounce an idea or so back and forth give me a call or email or skype etc. and I will share some of the things I’ve been taught from one of the best!
This is your year. Just keep plugging and the Law of Compensation will kick in. 🙂
Hope you had a remarkable time in Vegas! Now it’s ‘back to the grind’ for you I guess!
As my friend Jym says, there are many points that Penelope was not recognizing… there are so many angles and hurdles to launching yourself newly online….and nobody is 100% correct and gets it right immediately out of the gate (unless they’ve got a dozen horseshoes up their @$$)
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond. I’m glad you got what I was saying! 🙂
Jayne
Jamie Hudson
WOW – well I can’t stand Penelope.
You can’t not work 8 hours? What complete bullshit is that. “What do you want to do for 8 hours”. Again – complete and utter bullshit.
Nobody is good at writing and talking to people? What the fuck is she talking about?
There are millions of people out there that can write well and are also great with people.
Constantly talking shit about SEO? “How Did Pat Get Good At SEO”. Seriously, Penelope is seriously deluded.
In my opinion your goals are fine. Your blog rocks, your content rocks and building up a readership, lots of traffic and subscribers is perfect for what you’re trying to do.
Once you build up your subscriber base, you can sell whatever you want and make a lot of money.
Oh yeah – you can work freaking 30 minutes a day if you want to. I have friends who run huge blogs that all get between 5,000-10,000 unique visitors a day. They run by themselves, they have guest bloggers. They dedicate around 1 hour a week to their blogs for maintenance and working towards 1 blog post from themselves per month.
A blog is a platform, to launch products off and more. You are 100% right. She clearly knows nothing about you, your blog, your personal life and overall business.
BTW – I am 16 years old and have been marketing online since I was 12. I know countless marketers, bloggers and other people who make full time incomes online working less than 8 hours a day. I make a full time income online, am 16 years old, and work less than 8 hours a day.
I started my blog recently with similar intentions, to build a following, a readership, an email list and a platform I can use to market my own products and services.
Jeeze, you poor sod – you took that really well. She really attacked you for no reason. Just thought you should know my thoughts. The only thing I think we should all take from this interview is that we need to make our goals more concrete.
If you had an exact plan, figures and everything that you’re implementing in your daily blogging activities than maybe she wouldn’t have grilled you so much.
All in all – I dislike her greatly, she had 1 point. The rest was bullshit.
Steve
Jamie,
So I guess you’re not buying Penelope’s book? 🙂
I agree that she was off the mark about a few things, but you have to give her credit. She is a very successful entrepreneur and writer and knows her shit. She was talking out of her ass about some things, but overall her message was spot on.
She definitely has plenty of haters and people that think she’s an idiot, but I really think she has some excellent points. If she had no idea what she was talking about, she wouldn’t be where she is.
I get what you’re saying though and she can rub some people the wrong way. I’ve opened my mind to her ideas and think it will help me make some important decisions now.
And it sounds like you have a lot of great things going on with your online businesses and are kicking ass, especially for such a young guy.
Keep it up dude.
Warren
First visit to your site (thank Ana for that) and have to say the fact that you posted this podcast says enough to me about the type of person you are to keep me coming back!
Awesome! 🙂
Steve
Warren,
Thanks for the visit. I love Ana’s blog and am glad you found my site interesting enough to return to!
Warren
Bro, my best post has 247 comments (http://www.plrinternetmarketing.com/search-engines/backlinks-why-you-need-them-and-where-to-get-them/#comments) and it took months to get those! I’m seriously in awe of this post and it’s feedback. You need to write a post on this for sure! 🙂
Steve
Thanks Warren. I was shocked to see all the comments for sure. I’m planning on doing a post about it and may try to submit it to a big blog. Not sure yet..
Daya
I think she’s an idiot, but amazing props to you for posting this!
My husband manages to earn his living from his blog PLR Internet Marketing and it’s been less than 2 years since he left his day job so you obviously CAN earn a living from your blog.
Other than the quick visit to her site at the beginning of the interview I’ll never return. I will however come back here! 🙂
Steve
Daya,
She’s definitely not an idiot. She could have had more patience or tact, but she’s a smart woman. I know there are ways to make a living from blogging, but her point was that I didn’t know how.
It doesn’t bother me one bit that you won’t visit her blog, but I’m glad you’ll be back here 🙂
See you around!
Pat
I think she’s an asshole. She contradicts herself, was shouting down at you and jumps to conclusions. It contains a few snippets of good advice but overall, you seem to know what you’re on about and she just bounces around with her assumptions and she fails to move onto new points you bring up.
What a weirdo.
I think most people here are just impressed / intimidated by her frankness.
Steve
Pat,
I wouldn’t say she’s an asshole, just very direct and brutally honest. Not a lot of tact, but I don’t hold it against her.
Tom Parker
Thanks for posting this Steve. It really hit home to me also, and I felt like I was right there in the ‘hot seat’ with you!
There are so many comments on this post, I don’t have time to read them all, but from what I read, this stuck home to a lot of people.
Steve
That it did Tom. I am actually very surprised at all the attention this has gotten. It seems as though it has helped a number of people begin asking themselves some of the same questions she asked me.
Spy cameras for home
Wow. She was a price of work !
I can understand where she was comming from and found it interesting to listen to but I have to give you the credit for not telling her to Piss off. Well done for persuing it and publishing it, which seems to have driven plenty of traffic.
Tim@CCTV Design
That was truly an interesting interview and at a level reflective of how my site is going. After 7 months and still only a dribble of traffic, which has resulted in me going back to a full time job.
I see her point about your lack of direction based on the not being able to answer the question but I admire the fact that you stuck with the inteview and even posted it.
I too focus on Pat Flynn’s Smart Passive Income” and have spent much time on keyword research but while I write about my passion, CCTV, it would appear this authority site may not be the right one to make an income from.
Good luck and thanks for sharing.
Steve
Tim,
You say you had to go back to your job after 7 months of blogging but when I look at your blog, you don’t sell anything! You specifically state in your”About” page that you are just sharing info for free and have no intention of selling a product or service. I’m assuming you have others sites, but how do you expect to make money if you don’t sell anything? Your ads are never going to do it for you.
Also, what’s the search demand for CCTV where you are? I’m not seeing any SEO in your post titles.
Anyway, thanks for listening and for your support here.
Scott
Wow! I got this from Ana Hoffman. I was feeling rough for you but she does have a point about having very specific goals. Thanks for putting it out there my friend. This really helped me.
Scott
I may have to listen again to it.
Steve
Scott,
Thanks for the visit, I appreciate it! If it helped you, I have done my job.
syerodriguez
I have to say I almost cried listening to the interview and I’m a guy.
I have 2 kids and a wife and have spent a lot of time online, working at making a living.
I have had some success making money online, so there is room.
I definitely benefited from the information shared in the interview.
I have adjusted and readjusted my strategy and am experiencing some success as a result.
One thing Penelope said that hits home and I’ve had to think a lot about, is honesty with yourself.
Who am I and what am I really trying to do?
I’ve been able to clarify that a lot and it’s helped. I guess we have to refine the answer to that question in ourselves.
With that in mind, let’s go out and kick some a#%!
Wishing you success,
Sye @ Rapid Profit Formula Scam!
Steve
Sye,
Thanks for your honesty here. The fact that you realized that you had to ask yourself some hard questions is what this is all about. I’m glad this interview helped you and I wish you and your family success.
Toni Dockter
Hi Steve,
I got wind of this interview through Ana Hoffman. I’m familiar with Penelope — having read her blog for a couple years a while back. I also got into a tiff with her myself — and I so quit reading her blog on principle.
But one thing I can say about Penelope: she’s always interesting. She’s also very intelligent and IMHO understands the nature of business well. And sometimes she’s plain ol’ nutty. (Part of her charm?)
If this interview was a debate — with points given for verbal skills, making valid points, and overall comprehension of the subject matter, here’s how I’d score it:
Penelope: 90 points
Steve: 10 points – for politeness and hanging in there even though getting trampled
Steve, when Penelope kept saying you have no goal, I wished she would have said to you, “Fill in the blank: ‘I want to be a _________.'”
Penelope was right in saying that your dream is not a goal. A dream does not earn money. It’s the 8-hours-a-day thing she talked about.
You need to figure out what you really want to do with yourself and design an action plan that will help you achieve this goal. If you’re successful, it will give you the dream/vision of how you want your life to be: financially comfortable and able to spend time with your family.
Enjoyed the interview. Thanks for posting it. Took guts. Way to go.
Steve
Hi Toni,
Penelope definitely has a nutty side. I actually was thinking she was flat out crazy after our call!
Thanks for only 10 points 🙁
I know that having a dream doesn’t make me money directly, I believe that I am in a position to build something incredible based on this dream. Too many people give up on their dreams based on their circumstances and readily accept the status quo. These people have zero chance of getting what they want in life and it’s unbelievably sad.
My dream and passion is my strength. I have my “why”, I just haven’t figured out the “how”.
I’ve been asking myself the question “what do I really want to do” since the call. I’m looking at this seriously and learning as much as I can about myself and strengths/weaknesses.
This will ultimately direct the course of action I take here.
Thanks for taking the time to listen and share your thoughts with me.
Jym
Wow Steve! This a truly hardcore piece of content and good for you for putting it up…
There’s plenty of long commentaries here but I’d like to sum up my point of view on this.
Penelope has some awesome points here and clearly deeply knows here stuff.
I also feel that she doesn’t get some of the alternative standpoints which are equally as valid as her own. That includes those who are writers who deal well with people, and others who ‘make money blogging’ and spent some time building readership before finding their ‘launch point’.
Penelope is clearly brilliant. Her brilliance has a filter though (as with anyone) and in taking the gold (and discarding the rest) from this interview – that should be remembered.
Thanks for posting!
Steve
Jym,
I get what you’re saying and feel the same way. As sharp as she is, I still think she missed the mark with a few points. Saying that no writers are good with people is ridiculous and I know that it’s just not true. Regardless, she gave me some incredible advice and I’m very thankful for it.
Suellen Hughes
Hi Steve,
Well done on publishing this. Penelope really socked it to you and good on you for hanging in and not hanging up!
Although I thought Penelope’s style was tough, her message was spot on – for me.
Your podcast provided me with my own wake up call. I’ve been blogging away but not really enjoying it. Sure I can write but what I enjoy most is talking to people and working with people, not writing about it.
This podcast has been the impetus I needed to make a change.
Thanks again for sharing the tough lessons.
Steve
Hi Suellen,
That’s great that you were able to use this to help yourself find what you truly enjoy! I wish I was hit by a sudden realization, but instead, I have a lot of questions to ask myself.
I would love to hear your progress as you shift from writing to coaching/teaching/speaking or the like!
Paula Lee Bright
Kid, you posting this was invaluable. I’m taking each of her points/accusations (depending on which way you take it when you listen to it!) and applying them to my own issues.
Wow, powerful stuff. She just gave you a massive gift. USE IT!
I agree with her completely. 🙂 And I know where you are: I’ve been there, and it wasn’t long ago! Don’t feel bad. Even the biggies were there.
We’ll get better at this. I know we will, if we mean it. And want it. And plan for it, and work at it. 😀
Steve
Hi Paula,
I didn’t realize the value of this call until I listened to it again and talked with a few friends about it. Seeing all the comments/support/conversations, I feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to talk with her. I definitely don’t feel bad for getting blasted like this as long as it’s helpful.
Thanks for your support 🙂
sooreneccs
Cool Steve!
Coming here from Ana Hoffman,
Calling a spade a spade in her blunt way,
Compromise or sacrifice that is her question,
Wish you all the best!
Steve
She definitely called it like she saw it and unfortunately, I didn’t see it right away. Now that I’ve had time to listen to it again (and again), it makes so much more sense now. Thanks for the encouragement.
Uxío Fraga
¡Hi!
I just wanted to say:
· Congrats about the handling of the attack. You did it very well.
· Congrats about your courage of posting this interview.
· Congrats for starting your own blog in order to pursue something (whatever it is).
My point is you know you want to arrive somewhere (somewhere better than here and now) and you start walking.
You don’t know your goal (true) but at least you’re already moving. That’s (much) better than nothing, and taking action is what separates winners from losers.
She gave good advice to you (I don’t like her ways though) and now you can define better where do you want to go now; but I think, the natural way to achive something is to start, and you’ve started; so don’t feel bad for that.
It was easy for her to say all those truths when she’s already an expert on the field of blogging, making an online business and all that jazz. I’m sure she had no clue when she just started moving in order to get “somewhere” and discovered after. Just like you are doing right now (the hard and rude way, unfortunately).
Thanks for sharing. Cheers!
Steve
Uxio,
I feel like I have an idea, a dream, and a general goal of where I want to be in life, but don’t know how I’ll get there. That’s the question I’m asking myself. I’ve got a lot of learning about myself to do and I’m really excited about my future. Thanks for your support!
Alexis
First time reader/listener (was referred from Traffic Generation Cafe/Ana). Listened to the whole thing and here is what I got.
1) I love Penelope even more now (and I used to love her a lot). There are very few people you meet in life who are brilliant and will tell you exactly what they think regardless of how you may respond. This was a gift to you.
2) Unlike other commenters I don’t believe she was being harsh. She was getting frustrated because you weren’t getting what she was saying. And sometimes in the moment, it can be really hard to hear and process a big truth like that. But I don’t believe she was angry or unfair. If anything towards the end, you were clearly angry with her. Understandable, it’s hard to take so many body blows and not take a swing or two back.
3) I hope you can carve out some time (I know it’s hard with work, kids, etc.) to really reflect on what she is trying to tell you. This could just be a weird experience that get’s you a bunch of new readers (I know I’ll be reading up to see what you do next). Or this could be a major life catalyst for you.
4) I wish my blog were bigger/more important because then I could interview Penelope and she could rip me a new one. Sure it would sting and being publicly dressed down is a bummer. But you could spend years spinning your wheels to come to the same conclusions she just did in 36 minutes.
I’m actually really jealous. Conversations like this with people like her are so precious. Really, a very special gift. Good luck with it.
Steve
Alexis,
1) I agree that this was a wonderful gift and even more so now that it has generated all these great conversations. It’s been a HUGE eye opener.
2) That was exactly what happened. I was totally caught in the moment and caught off guard. My mind just wasn’t ready to process that information. I actually wasn’t getting pissed at her, but maybe a little annoyed at her inability to understand what I was saying. Looking back, it’s now clear that I was fumbling with my thoughts and she was right on with her assessment.
3) I actually just got back from Vegas and had little time to reflect on things. That’s my plan although it is very hard to find time like that. I’m not looking for just a bunch of new subscribers/readers. I plan on using what I’ve learned to change the direction of this blog and subsequently, my life.
4) Why not email her? She didn’t look at my traffic or anything when I asked to interview her. It did take me quite a few months of emails to finally pin her down, but I say give it a try!
Thanks so much
Darrell Evans
Steve…I’ve not read any of your blog posts and got her by Ana Hoffman.
Penolope posed some very good things to consider as you continue your quest to leave your job. I’ve worked with on many levels people with her style and you were clearly not able to identify her style/personality profile as a matter of fact person.
I know it’s frustrating to feel attacked but having had many a coach get in my face and call me out for my performance/goal just like this, I listened and took several notes as I’m involved in a start up currently and a few of her points were applicable to our project.
Tough love but she made great points. Best to you as you strive for your goals.
Steve
Hey Darrell,
I wouldn’t say that I was frustrated, more like shocked. I wasn’t upset or angry and after taking some time to digest the call, was very thankful for the free coaching/butt kicking!
Good luck in your start up and hopefully the interview will help you in some small way..
Dave Lucas
No offense, but this is way off the map. A blog is a blog, and nothing to get all huffed up over. You’re taking this way too seriously. Just my 2 cents.
Tim
I have been aiming at getting the traffic based on good advice before I load it up on ads and sales.
I do get some software sales, which is one of my keywords and a permanent advertising space on several pages
Steve
You probably know more about this that I do, but it seems like your blog is not optimized at all for sales. Also, if your traffic is low, how can you expect to sell ads that will pay you more than a few bucks?
Leah McClellan
Thanks so much for sharing. This is the only interview I have ever listened to for the entire length–and this is a long one, by my standards (I have little patience for audio or video–I’m a writer :).
Good tips. Thank you so much for sharing.
Yes, I would have gone nuts with you! (still listening…lol…) Totally dysfunctional toward the end…but great. OH SHUT UP ALREADY (not Penelope 🙂
lol
Steve
Hi Leah,
Thanks for making this interview your first sit through! Hopefully it was worth it.
I don’t blame you for thinking like that. After listening to it a few times, I started getting annoyed at myself for being so ignorant to what she was trying to convey. I was so shocked that my brain seized up and I lost the ability to process coherent thoughts 🙂
Leah McClellan
PS No offense intended–thanks again–much–for sharing. Very brave of you and I got some great tips–really 🙂
Steve
No offense taken 🙂 I fully expected to get a sound drubbing over this!
Melissa Dinwiddie
A friend just pointed me to this podcast, and I couldn’t resist listening. (Controversy attracts attention! ;))
Wow! What is most surprising to me about this podcast is how many fans it earned Penelope!
Personally, although she had some really good points, her manner turned me off entirely.
That said, I think her point that you need to figure out how you actually want to spend your 8 hours (or more) each day is excellent. Start from what you actually want to be DOING, then build your business (or find a job) that supports THAT.
Yes, yes, YES. That’s how to create true success: figure out where your “genius zone” is, the things you absolutely ADORE doing, and that are of value to others, and build your business around THAT.
From what I understand (never having read his book), that’s what Tim Ferriss’ 4-Hour Workweek is all about. Not that you’ll spend only 4 hours engaged in producing income, but that only 4 of your income-producing hours will be doing things that FEEL LIKE work. (Still optimistic, if you ask me, but whatever.)
So Penelope had some wisdom inside that toxic tongue.
But her pronouncement that “There are NO good writers who are good with people” is simply bullshit. Where the hell did THAT come from?
Perhaps her arrogant claim to know The Truth here comes from insecurity about her own pathetic people skills? She certainly uses her writing as an excuse for being sucky with people, doesn’t she? As if being a good writer makes it okay be a mean and nasty person.
Well, thankfully that’s her problem, not mine.
Sorry you had to go through the pain of this interview (which was painful enough to listen to as an observer after the fact!), but I admire your ability to get really good stuff out of it. That’s a mark of strength, for sure.
Thanks for posting. I’ll be curious to see where you go from here.
Steve
Hi Melissa,
It does seem like most people who left comments here were in favor of Penelope’s in-your-face style. I had never really thought about how I wanted to spend my days. I knew what I liked to do and what I wanted my business ultimately to look like, but I overlooked that very important questions. Now I know the answer-it’s answering all these comments 🙂
I’m trying to find my “genius zone’ and am going though some learning processes right now. I’ve never really taken the time to figure exactly what I’m great at and why. Knowing this will be critical to my success I know.
I think your assumption of the 4HWW is correct. It’s about finding meaningful and deeply fulfilling work that is not work at all for you. And by the Penelope hates Tim Ferriss and she has an interesting article about it. I personally like his book and what he stands for, but she’s a different breed as you now know.
I’ll say that I’m glad that I had the call with her as it opened my eyes up to many things, but given her temperament, I’m not sure I would want to have lunch with her..I think she makes a great coach for the right type of person. I like the no bullshit approach and think it works well for me. Although I don’t mind a more subtle approach either..
Thanks for taking the time to listen and I hope to see you around more frequently.
Flo
I have been reading Penelope’s blog for sometime now and have known her to go straight for the kill but listening to her say the words is like so out of this world. But man, I like the way you took the whole interview affair and ran away with it. That’s what they call creating a buzz. I hope this interview will bring good results for you and your blog.
Mandy Swift @ Your Online Marketing "Personal Trainer"
Wow Steve, like Darrell, I found my way here via Ana Hoffman. I say Kudos to you. Well sat out and good on you for having the balls to publish … If your goal was more traffic, I think you certainly got that one… I found you all the way from Devon in the UK (and by the way I’d never heard of Penelope Trunk either) but I thought both of you were awesome for different reasons. There were some absolute gems in their and real ‘truth’ moments … thanks again 🙂
Steve
Hi Mandy,
My goal with the interview was not for more traffic, but rather to help people with what she shared. I didn’t realize just how much it would affect people though!
I’m glad I did get the traffic though because I hope more people will stick around and follow me here.
By the way, are you an online personal trainer? I’ve been a certified trainer for 14 years and am currently teaching fitness boot camps. I’m thinking about creating an online component for my business and offering online coaching. Is that something you deal with?
Mandy Swift @ Your Online Marketing "Personal Trainer"
Hi Steve, my brand is the Online Marketing Personal Trainer. Yes offline, in a former life, I was a PT, now I just teach on a hobby basis. Online I coach people to get their businesses fitter by understanding the marketing and the strategies they need to ‘muscle up’ online. So, no I don’t do personal training for ‘bodies’ online although it is something I thought of, I think there really is a need for online personal training with a ‘human component’, not just these hideous automated workouts. Mail me if you want to bounce any ideas around 🙂
Chris R. Keller
Make me think about my own blog and what my goal with it is. It takes guts to post something like this. Thanks for posting.
Lis Sowerbutts
Wow, well done on publishing this! I didn’t know you or Penelope Trunk – but someone posted this at the forum over at zenduck.me – and I thought I’d have a look.
I was warned off blogging a couple of years ago, as I needed to make an income, and had absolutely no desire to become famous and make thousands in speaking engagements – I hate speaking: i’m a writer not a coach 🙂
It sounds to me it sounds like you want to make money and fit it around a family – there is an awful lot of bullshite online – but plenty of us do make an income out of it.
Personally I haven’t got into the sort of income you are talking about in this post – more like around $30k – but there are 2 sides to this. If you didn’t have the job would you need the expensive house/mortgage/car etc etc. Just a thought – you can live a great life just by reducing expenditure and working for yourself – dramatically so if you relocate to a cheaper country/area
Steve
Lis,
It great that you know what you are and what you aren’t! I’m still trying to figure out where my strengths are and where I will probably be most successful. I like doing it all to be honest. Writing, speaking, coaching,teaching, technical stuff..
My business will definitely need to be based around my lifestyle and that includes my young daughters. I don’t need a ton of money, just enough to live off. And we don’t have an expensive home or cars and we live on the cheap. It’s going to be hard to cut to many more corners in our budget. The average household in my area makes over 100k and I make less than 2/3 of that. So, it’s definitely a struggle..
Craig_Os
This IS one of the better recording I listened too in a long while.
Penelope was right, I realize now, people want to watch you, me, us grow. It was both entertaining and very interesting experience.
At different point I found myself rooting for you to grasp what Penelope was saying.
And at other moments rooting for Penelope,almost screaming at her, “Change your approach” so she can help you understand what she is saying.
I am sitting here, thinking, this is what a good Reality Show should be like! There was “conflict” in the relationship between you two, which made listening that much more interesting. And there the hope, the hope of growth, to keep me cheering for you both.
Steve
Thanks Craig,
It definitely was an interesting experience!
And although I’m wasn’t all that crazy about her approach, she got her points across very effectively.
I’ve spent much time working on myself since then and I’m very thankful for what she did for me.
Anna
I found this podcast via Penelope Trunk’s blog. She’s my role model, and I’ve never heard her interact with anyone, and I now love her even more.
Thank you for putting this up- it’s so great how you just got your mind blown, and then reflected, and then learned. Having our worldviews changed is rough- good for you.
The Artist’s Way really really helped me- I used to be in a job that I hated, made bad emotional decisions, felt stuck. I cannot recommend this book enough.
Also, because of your lifestyle needs, I’d suggest looking into location independence. @leawoodward has some great resources.
Good luck!
Steve
Anna,
I’m glad to hear this interview had made more of a fan out of you! She’s definitely a sharp woman!
I’ve learned so much about myself since the interview. I’ve spent quite a lot of time in the last few weeks reading and trying to understand my true passions and goals.
It’s been an eye opening experience for sure!
I have not read The Artist’s Way and will add it to my reading list, thanks.
Sergraya
This is the best podcast I’ve ever listened to. Mad respect for you bro for posting it! This is your turning point. Embrace it. I had my “moment” a few years ago. I just want to buy you a beer or two right now.
Steve
Wow, best Podcast ever! Sweetness!!!
Awesome to hear you already had your big moment. What was it for you?
Also, feel free to come on down to DC for those beers!
Sergraya
Dude, it was my wife. A couple of years ago she finally had enough of me coming home with a negative attitude from work, she had enough of the emotional ups and downs, she had enough of the “but you don’t understand” response I used to give her. Dude, she ripped into me (not as harsh as PT). But she did. I consumed over 100+ personal development books, audio, podcasts, youtube videos, blogs, CD’s, and anything else that would give me the insight and clarity I needed. Listen, I have devoured many hours of podcasts, youtube vids, seminar vids to know this is exactly what people like you and I need at times. Personally, I thrive after a talk like this; After a few days of sulking of course. I’m new to this blogging stuff, but as far as lifestyle change, I’ve been chasing this unicorn my whole life. We should do some kind of Skype/onlineFB mastermind group. Besides the “talk,” A lot of reading and sleep deprivation with some Crossfit has been my pivot point.
I really hope you’ve embraced it. . . .Its one of those things you really don’t see as life changing until years down the road. As far as those beers are concerned, I also listen to the Motley Fool podcast and they mentioned a pretty good micro brew from there- forgot the name though- have you tried the Asian version of Chipotle?
Steve
Sergraya,
My wife has been tolerating my piss poor attitude for along time and she too has had enough. My negativity is bringing everyone down and it’s sooo hard to change it. It’s strained my marriage and just about every other area of my life as well.
I too love to read and educate myself although I have yet to try voluntary sleep deprivation. Just having small children gives my plenty of it:)
I have embraced what she said and have also spent a lot of time reading through the comments and interacting with people about this. I’ve learned a lot about myself and am changing things as we speak.
Let’s try to hook up on Skype some time.
I have yet to try the new Chipotle, but probably will get around to it sometime. Where are you? Do you have a blog yet?
David
Steve,
You sound like a great guy so I’ve got something to tell you that could change your world — but first please indulge me for just a couple comments about Penelope.
The people I would have the most sympathy for would be anyone who’s life is attached to Penelope’s. Any husband or boyfriend would be on suicide watch. She is a classic be-all, know-all nightmare! And her marketing knowledge is very narrow.
Now, about you …
What did infamous bank robber Willie Sutton say when asked why he robbed banks? He replied: “Because that’s where the money is!”
Forget blogging.
Becoming a master at buying traffic is the most profitable skill your will ever have. Contrary to Penelope’s advice, Adwords is the worst place to start or ever buy traffic.
Here’s a resource to another world — it’s where Willie would go because that’s where the money is being made. The site aggregates blogs from some of the top marketers in the world. These guys knock down $100-500K a month – but not from blogging. They buy traffic and sell stuff.
http://affbuzz.com/
If interested, shoot me an email and I’ll point you to the best knowledge and people to mastermind with.
David
Adrienne
Hey Steve,
262 comments later, I listened to the interview with Penelope. Man, she ripped you a new one but I also have to agree. She was right and at the time I know you did not want to hear that.
We don’t want to be called out on our dreams because we have a vision of what we want our lifestyles to be but have no clue what needs to be done in order to accomplish that.
Sometimes it’s just trial and error and we learn as we go but you have to set your goal, know what you want, get the education that will help you with that and take consistent action.
Trust me when I say, the ride is worth it. We all have to make sacrifices in order to get what we want but the end result is sweet.
Take care my friend and I know you’re moving in the right direction now.
~Adrienne
Andrew
While I do agree with most of what she is saying, there are some things I simply do not agree with her on:
-a person does not have to work 8 hours a day. I don’t know why you agreed with her on this.
-I can think of people who are good at writing and socializing. And you even gave her a couple examples off the top of your head.
-there is no rule that states you have to mimick somebody else’s life 100%.
Steve
Andrew,
As far as working 8 hours each day, I know that’s just not true. I was sort of in shock during the call, so I agreed with a few things that I really didn’t want to argue with her about. It was a no win situation anyway. If I had disagreed with her, she would have just gone off and I was trying to avoid that.
I think it’s completely false that writers can’t be good with people and vice versa. I don’t know what she was talking about there. Again, any name I would have thrown out, she would have disagreed.
And I don’t see why I would need to be a single, world traveling person to have a similar business model to Ash Ambirge’s. Didn’t make sense to me.
Thanks for stopping by!
Mitz
OMG Penelope is overboard!
There is no need to talk to someone like that. She obviously presumes that her way of living life and her way of making money is right..
Unfortunately Penelope’s opinion is the only one that counts…
She could have just said that you like the safe way of having a steady income that someone else provides.
If you want to mimic someone life take mine. I blog for a living, I have two kids and a husband, and I have the freedom you are looking for.. To say you cannot make money from blogging is totally nuts!
On the other side of the coin …That was the best interview I have ever heard. Even though I don’t agree with Penelope, you could not have paid people to perform that way. I thought you handle the situation very well.
🙂
Steve
Hi Mitz,
I wasn’t all that crazy about her brashness, but it’s what I needed to hear. If she had been mild mannered and polite, I might never thought twice about what she said. I checked out your blog and you seem to have quite a lot going on. Your blogging schedule is very interesting as well.
I’m not sure exactly how I want to spend my days and am still trying to figure some things out.
The best interview, huh? That’s quite a compliment!!
Thanks for listening and hopefully I will see you around..:)
Kathryn Kistner
Steve,
You know she gave you an incredible GIFT, right?
I found the link from the FIRST PAGE of GOOGLE! Look how your bravery paid off! And it WAS brave of you to put this out for the world to see.
I didn’t get that there was any true hostility from Penelope. She WAS very frustrated that you weren’t able to see (and agree with) her truth… what she’s observed about how the world works.
I could see that you felt that she was attacking you personally, but I think she’s just a VERY targeted communicator, and you are not. It’s sometimes hard to mesh those two communication styles.
My respect for you… from the beginning of the interview (I had never heard of you)… to the end, went waaay up! Well done!
This was a FABULOUS lesson TO ME, to put myself ALL THE WAY OUT THERE. It pays off. [First page on Google! Dang!]
People pay when you’re not holding back. My goals need to be more specific, too.
And Steve, thanks for taking the “hits” for ME. Love you for that!
Steve
Hi Kathryn,
At the time of the interview, I didn’t really realize the impact that this would have on me and so many others. It has been a wonderful gift and I’ve been able to totally refocus on more productive things. Had it not been for the interview, I would have continued on doing what I had been doing.
I needed to change my direction towards building a business and that’s what I am finally doing (slowly).
I appreciate the compliments and am so thankful that her message resonated so well with so many people. I love the fact that it really hit you as well and gave you a wake up call!
Good luck with your goals!
Beat Schindler
Penelope is one sharp cookie. Way sharper than I imagined or expected – even though I’ve been reading her stuff for a while. What’s more, a quality she shares with other sharp people, she doesn’t give a damn about being nice or right – hence is free to focus her energies on being real and effective. That said, she’s smart, but you’re even more so. YOU pulled the interview off. YOU had the balls to post it and share it with the world – unedited. YOU had the smarts to realize the stratospheric wake-up call, the gift, she delivered to your doorstep – free of charge. YOU are my star now, because this interview is EXACTLY what I needed. You may think she talked to you. Lemme tell you, she just used you to talk to me. That’s how good she is :-]
With my very best wishes to you and your family.
– Beat
PS. Thank you, thank you, thank you – the both of you.
Steve
Beat,
There’s no doubt that Penelope is very smart and I respect her no bullshit approach to things. SO many people are playing it safe and telling us what we want to hear, so it’s refreshing to see someone like her.
I’m not sure I can take much credit for this though as nice as it sounds. I have no problem embarrassing myself in the public’s eye if it will help me and/or others.
I did take her advice to heart and have adjusted a number of things in my life because of it.
The most important thing is that it affected YOU! I love to hear it when people tell me how much this interview has spoken to them. I hope you take her advice and begin asking yourself some difficult questions.
Thanks for your support.
El Edwards
Hi Steve 🙂
First time on your blog. I came here via a link from my marketing coach and, being well aware of just how frank Penelope can be, I was instantly drawn to this post when I spotted it in your side bar.
I can totally understand why you, and many of the readers who have been here on this journey with you thus far, found Penelope’s style of delivery less than charming but I also agree with what others have said, she has done you a massive service in this interview.
Lots and lots of people are stuck in day jobs that they loathe but unless they (and you) have a really clear picture of what it is they’d actually rather do with their life, it’s impossible to create that alternate picture.
Quitting the rat race and gaining freedom as your own boss is much lauded as the ultimate solution but there is another way which can be a better fit for some people: what if you didn’t hate your job?
What if you knew your needs and values and found a job that allowed you to live in harmony with those?
It’s just something to consider really because entrepreneurship is not the ultimate job. It’s just one option and as great a fit as it is for some personalities, for others it is liked the road paved to hell!
Great interview and I look forward to seeing where you go from here.
El
P.S. Penelope is right. You can’t have Ash’s business model. I think you missed the point there to be honest. It’s not about traveling the world. It’s about how Ash works 18 hour days with the laser beam focus that no married person can have.
Kathryn Kistner
El’s reply reminded me of a fantasy I have held for at least 30 years:
Everyone on the planet that hates his job, on the same day, QUITS. (Including YOU.)
Suddenly, YOUR dream-job is available! In Cairo… Southern California… Japan… it’s available!
If the job was unbearable because of an incompatible boss, you might even go back to your old job, because it is NOW your DREAM job (assuming you still love the work, location, hours, etc.).
You CANNOT “settle” for anything less than PERFECT FOR YOU.
Since the whole concept is out-of-the-box, this even opens up amazing options for people to TRADE houses, directly, rather than sell and buy again.
When 100% of the planet LOVES, LOVES, LOVES their job, there is peace on Earth… because you are steeped in what you LOVE, every day, all day long.
—END OF FANTASY—
From Kathryn Kistner in Texas (USA), who’s now saying,
“I’d love for it to come true. People who hate their jobs are grumpy, as are ALL people in pain!”
El Edwards
Love it! 🙂
Steve
Kathryn,
Wow. That would be something and is definitely an interesting fantasy you have there..
I like your idea of not settling for anything less than perfect for you. It seems as though most of us will settle for a job we don’t really want or feel like we need and that’s a shitty way to go through life. Personally, I’ve had enough of it hence my strong desire to break free from it.
It make take me 5 years to get out to do what I love, but I AM doing it!
Steve
El,
Thanks for taking the time to listen to the interview. While I was pretty blown away with Penelope’s bluntness, I realized soon after that she did me a tremendous favor. I’ve taken her advice and started making changes in my life. Big ones.
For all the years I’ve been miserable, I’ve never really taken the time to think about exactly what I wanted to do instead. I just knew what I was doing wasn’t it!
As far as finding a job that I like, that isn’t an option for me. There are a number of reasons why but I’ve given it enough thought to know that much. Given my personality type, I am not the ideal candidate for being self employed. My type indicator would tell me to find a secure job with supportive, like minded people. Not interested though.
I am still missing the point about Ash’s business model! Why can’t I (or others) create something similar without the 18 hour days? I know she is a rare breed and is a phenomenal writer and marketer, but I think it’s possible for us married folks to create a business that shines like hers…
El Edwards
I’d love to dig into why you’re not interested in exploring the possibility of a job you enjoy with like minded people but forgive me, that’s just the jester in me. I know you have very good reasons for your decision. 🙂
As for Ash, I’m not suggesting that married people with kids can’t create fabulous shining businesses. I have three young children and a husband to boot so I’m a massive advocate for being able to have a wonderful business, with or without a family.
But Ash’s model of building a massive community following and selling premium content takes time. She also has her copy writing services which again take time.
You and I don’t have the luxury of 18 hour days my friend because we have spouses that need conversation, children with homework to be done, meals to make, bedtime stories to read. If Ash wants to work through the night on a project she can because the only person she has to deal with the next day when she’s tired is herself.
You can have a successful business and do all those things you want to do but the point I believe Penelope was making was that you can’t do it Ash’s way because Ash’s way takes a shed load of time each day and involves lifestyle decisions that you can not match because your lifestyle is difference. Instead, look at someone who you admire who has children and a spouse and see what they do in their day to day routine. If that’s something you’d like to do, dig in and see how they make their money and use that as a model to explore.
Ultimately though, while it’s wonderful to learn from others who have gone before you, to build a really successful business you have to blaze your own trail, push the boundaries, do things in a way that only you can. As Oscar Wilde said, “Be you, everyone else is taken!”
Steve
El,
It’s not that I wouldn’t enjoy working with like minded people, because I love it. That’s what blogging is for me. Most of the people who visit my site are like minded. I just have zero interest in an actual job. I plan to create a highly successful online business and of course will be working alongside many different people, so it just boils down to being an employee versus a business owner.
I see what you’re sating about Ash. You’re right, as much as I want to think I can do it all and work my ass to the bone, I simply have too many obligations to do it all. I always think I can do more than I actually can and subsequently run out of time every day. Every day.
Right now, I trying to create a business model that will be right for me and my lifestyle. I’m struggling with it and have far too much information in my head. I know I’ve said I wanted Ash’s business model, but nobody wants to see a copycat. That’s not how people become great and do great things.
And I want to be great.
Mark of Success
Hi Steve,
First time on your site, and I was very interested in listening to what Penelope had to say.
Unfortunately, I was not able to hear Penelope’s voice in the podcast, so I downloaded the file penelopeTrunk.mp3. But that was of the same quality, and it consisted of only the first 859KB of the 25.3MB file.
Would you mind fixing the problem or sharing any other link etc. where you might have uploaded the podcast?
I’ll see you around.
Cheers,
Mark
Steve
Hi Mark,
That’s odd. This is the first time I’ve heard that and it’s been downloaded a few thousand times..
I tied it myself just now and it seems to work just fine. I “right clicked” on the “Download” link and selected “save link as” and it works.
Have you tried downloading it from iTunes? I did that as well at it works perfectly.
As far as uploading it, I use Filezilla as my file manager and Blubrry as my Podcasting software. Everything is working fine there as well.
I have seen some speakers that only will play one voice in one speaker and the other voice in the other speaker. Is there a chance you speakers are the issue with not being able to hear Penelope?
Let me know if you get it to work..
Yari
Although the words are harsh, the advise is invaluable. I’ve learned a lot from this podcast. Thanks for sharing it!
Steve
Thanks Yari, I’m glad you found it insightful. Hopefully you will some of the knowledge to better yourself.
Mark of Success
Hi Steve,
I tried the same thing again today and could get the whole file. Not sure what happened the other day. Had to strain hard to hear what Penelope was speaking in the right side of my headphones, but heard the complete podcast three times.
Great interview, because it really makes everyone think and take a hard look at their goals. But having said that, she went on to be rude. She backed it up saying she’s a writer and not a coach, but being a writer doesn’t justify rudeness, does it?
Not having extreme clarity on your goals is different from not having goals. And she was just bent on trying to make you accept that you didn’t have a goal. I think she was unreasonably pushy on that, and for too long.
There’s lots to say, but I’d like to comment particularly on the following part. My comments are inline:
You: My ultimate goal is to be home with my children.
I: Well, may not be an ultimate goal, but that’s a good vision (until it’s time for the birds to leave the nest).
Penelope: You are not independently wealthy, right?
You: Not yet.
I: So what if he is not independently wealthy yet? Becoming independently wealthy is the [intermediate] goal here I believe, which Steve has set out on through this blog.
Penelope: You can’t have a goal for the independently wealthy that’s {what?} for 5th graders.
You: Well, that’s not the goal… ultimately it’s to… (then she interrupts)
I: (No idea what she said!)
Penelope: Okay, the goal is… You have to work eight hours a day.
You: Sure. Or more, of course.
Penelope: So you can’t have a goal to not work eight hours a day.
I: Really? What about passive income and the lifestyle that follows successfully implementing it?
Penelope: All you can do is have a goal to make those 8 hours good.
I: Really? Is that a goal? That’s not even a sensible vision!. Now who is teaching whom about goals?
I think she landed up being in control of the interview partly because she would interrupt you and refuse to let you complete what you were saying (which is disrespectful), and partly because she leveraged the fact that you didn’t yet know how exactly you wanted to get to your vision and life purpose – which is normal, and mostly because you gave in to her, probably because you had too much respect for her.
A very small minority of people really have an unchanging life purpose and complete clarity on it right from the onset, and there was no reason to rub that in too much.
After she was done with the grilling, it would have been nice if she could at least steer it (since she was already in control) and take it to a logical conclusion instead of ending it that way. I lost all respect for her there.
All said and done, there were some good lessons in the interview to take home. I can totally relate to you and what this interview had to offer, and, having taken the plunge (I quit my job) earlier this year, I look forward to taking my goals much more seriously.
I’d like to end by letting you know that I applaud you for posting the podcast here! I think it WILL send a million visits your way.
Here’s to financial independence!
Cheers,
Mark
Steve
Mark,
Glad to hear you finally got it working!
And thanks for this great comment!!
Her rudeness has been debated here quite a bit and to be honest, I don’t think she was. She was direct and impatient, but after listening to it a few times, I think she just got frustrated at trying to get me to see things her way (which I didn’t)..
I’m usually pretty sensitive to how I’m treated but in this case, I think it’s just her personality. I’m not saying she has a pleasant personality, but it is what it is.
As far as the goal issue, she was right. I didn’t have a clear goal that I could effectively articulate. And while I did have general goals, she was asking me for specifics.
I was forced to ask myself some hard questions after the interview and reading through all the comments. I’ve become a better person because of the answers I’ve found so far.
She definitely had control of the interview after a while and I was ok with it. I’m no expert at interviewing and she is leaps and bounds more proficient at that.
The interview could have gone in a different direction had I steered it that way, but in looking back, I think it happened that way for a reason.
And as far as visitors, it hasn’t brought me a million, but it has been higher than normal for sure….
Mike Holman
Interesting interview – I agree with her general point, but boy she could use a bit more tact (or a lot more).
Rob
This was an awesome interview. I took to heart a lot of what she said. But one big caution is in order. We all see life through our own experiences, biases, beliefs, etc. She said that a “blog is not a business.” She’s made this point before, and she’s flat out wrong. A blog can be a wonderful business. I have three sites that combined will make about $500k this year. I spend about 2 hours a day working on them, and have a completely separate career. Does every blogger do this? No. Just like most writers make next to nothing. But just because she doesn’t make money blogging doesn’t mean it’s not a viable business model.
Steve
Rob,
I’m interested to hear how you are making so much money with 3 blogs.I think Penelope’s point was that blogs by themselves are not businesses. They are simply a platform for other things. For example, if I began offering coaching services on my site and make 6 figures from it, I wouldn’t be making money from blogging.
I’m definitely curious about what you are doing to be earning such a tremendous income!
Rob
Steve, I make my money through affiliate marketing. The truth is that the people who are killing it in affiliate marketing don’t talk about what they do (at least not in detail). And I know folks who are making 100k+ per MONTH, entirely on SEO and affiliate marketing.
A coaching business is fine if that’s what you want, but you are selling your time. With affiliate marketing, you make money 24 hours a day. I’m not suggesting it’s easy, but the potential is huge. That’s why a chuckle to myself every time I hear Penelope say that you can’t make money blogging.
Steve
Rob,
I don’t doubt that there are many people making fortunes through affiliate marketing. It makes sense also that we don’t hear about them often because there is no reason for them to talk about it. If I was making $500k/year and didn’t want to actually teach people how to do it, I would probably not be writing about it.
I’m on the fence about coaching because I really don’t want to get caught in the trading time for money trap again. I love the idea of passive income (who doesnt) and am working slowly on building niche sites.
If you have any interest in chatting/emailing, let me know. I’d really like to hear more specifics about your businesses. I’m sure I could learn a great deal from your experience.
Mads Singers
As I guess you have realized by now this is probably one of the best wake up calls that you can get 😉
So make the most of it – get your goals down on paper and start living them!
Steve
Mads,
I have realized what an incredible gift I received and am taking action (for the first time) towards ending my grind.
Robert
Thanks for posting the interview.
One of the points I’m not clear on, she said find somebody who has a life that you want and have that be your goal. She also said that a lifestyle is not a goal. So what is a goal – just how you want to spend your time?
Steve
Robert,
Her point was that in order to have someone’s success in business, you need to have their life. I didn’t agree with her but can understand where she is coming from. What she is talking about is being realistic about your risk tolerance and lifestyle in how it relates to what you want your business to look like. She told me I can’t have Ash Ambirge’s business because I’m not single, have a full time job, and don’t have the ability to put in the hours she has to.
A goal can be anything. One goal she called me out on was that of not knowing what I specifically wanted to do for a living. I want to blog and work online but couldn’t articulate how I was going to spend my days. Do I want to write, coach, speak, create products, etc. She had a great point because I didn’t know the answer. Now I have a much clearer picture of what I want to do each day to get where I want to be.
ralph@retirement lifestyle
Steve,
First time here (came from Mars Dorian). I agree with what he says and I haven’t yet taken the time to listen. First you set a goal and went public then you put yourself on the line with an expert. Gutsy and it paid off for you big time. A slapdown and a wakeup call. Now go do it again. That’s how you win in life.
Steve
Ralph,
What happened after my interview with Penelope blew me away! I had no idea that it would take off like this. And you’re right, that is how we get ahead in this business. I’m working on some pretty big things and plan to create more buzz soon…
Keshav
Awesome post Steve. She was right, we loved hearing this and I could relate to this conversation.
We readers want to see you change…..
Don’t worry about spending all your precious time on us, go create something, make money from different ideas, fix your life, marriage, finances and then finally EndTheGrind. All we ask is to be kept in the loop while trying to do all these 🙂
This was a post in that direction – your changes and so was the post about strengthening your marriage (I patched up with my wife today about last night’s fight because of that post. Thanks!)
But you know what’s the awesome thing – you! Did you even listen to yourself in the interview. You handled it with so much grace, she was burying you and you forced yourself to smile and be respectful towards her.
And then you actually posted the entire thing in your blog. THIS is your strength! and we love you for that my friend.
But to quote Marcus “I honestly did not disagree with anything she said” (Wow! what a line)
Steve
Keshav,
I’ve really learned so much since the interview and I’ve changed the way I look at my life, goals, and business. She did me a huge favor by calling me out and although it wasn’t all that pleasant to get blasted like that, I needed to hear it!
I did my best to aviod getting upset and I do have a lot of respect for her, so I didn’t want to get into a pissing match with her. To be honest, I was more shocked than anything at what was happening and was having a hard time focusing on articulating my responses to her questions.
And yes, Marcus has given me some invaluable advice (and not just with this post) and I’ve been lucky to have him as a friend..
What are you up to? Are you working on yourself?
Susan
Hi! I’m late to the game on this post and podcast. Awesome experience. Penelope is kind of brutal, I think I’d expect her to pull out some punches during any interview. Especially when she admittedly has trouble reading and understanding societal clues and other people.
Have you considered freelancing on the side? Despite what people say, I think blogging is a great tool to either potentially make money, refine your craft, structure yourself, or otherwise. But it’s always smart to diversify and you can make money more quickly freelancing. In my opinion.
I’m a full-time freelancer and sometimes it’s harsh. But you don’t necessarily need a website or business cards for it, just some research and guinea pigs to launch an offering. You work in finance. Not knowing much else about your job – could you help creatives manage their finances? Run chats targeting your dream audience to help them with financial issue X? Offer consulting?
I’m launching a new service directed towards international clients with my writing and social media work. I niched it down to a specific group and now am looking for clients via Craigslist to let me try it out for free. My goal is to do it roughly 4x and see what feedback I get. Then set up a referral bonus system and tap some contacts I have.
If I burn miserably, it will suck, but I’ve only lost some time and in many ways saved myself time in the long-run.
Just some thoughts!
Susan
One more thing, I did feel like she lambasted you unnecessarily many times. She did give valuable advice, but discounting everything you said severed the conversation to a one-sided ‘argument’ so to speak. I can only imagine what she’s like in board meetings!
Steve
Yea, I didn’t agree with some of the things she said and she just got more and more frustrated with me. I’m sure she is pretty challenging to work with, but she does get stuff done!
Illiya Vjestica
Steve,
First of all fair play for putting up the un-edited version, in life sometimes we really don’t like to hear the truth when people ‘tell it’ like it is.
I have friends and family who tell it straight like Penelope and it hurts sometimes but it is the best thing someone can do for you.
If we didn’t tell people the truth they would never see what’s in front of them. I rarely beat around the bush if my friends ask me for my advice. Marcus is a good friend to you!
I really enjoyed listing to this podcast, any person, blogger or otherwise who wants to realise their dream should listen to this podcast too.
I found this blog post BTW by reading an awesome post on Passive Panda, I hadn’t heard of Penelope Trunk before this post but I have massive respect for her, regardless of what she does for he day job.
Good luck with your goals, I’ll keep reading your blog. Keep trucking 😉
Steve
Hey Illiya,
I like to think of myself as a straight shooter and I appreciate it when people are they same with me. Penelope was definitely that person for me!
After 300+ comments and a ton of emails, I’ve realized the impact that this interview has had on many. It’s really awesome to see that!
And thanks for coming from James’ site. He’s got a really strong blog over there at PP!
Ebony
This is my first time visiting your blog. This was an Amazing interview and I’m grateful personally that you shared. I think even more importantly than your responses was the underlying intent behind her questions – what do we really want and why- and why are we really doing what we are doing now. Huge paradigm shift for me. Thanks for sharing.
Steve
Hi Ebony,
During the interview, I felt like she was just laying into me or was just having a really bad day, I realized afterwards that she was really trying to help me see what I couldn’t see. And it worked….
Paula
I’m so glad you posted this interview. Thanks for being in the hot seat for all of us! While her tone was brutal at times, there was some underlying truth to what she said. It made me really think about my goals and being as specific as possible, but also understanding the why behind them. With my coaching clients, I call that defining their BIG WHY. I really benefited from her wisdom about look at someone’s life. Do you want their life? (Not just their success…) And yet, I’m so clear, that we can create lifestyles and success in a million different ways. It has alot to do with what we believe is possible. Her approach is just one way!
Steve
Paula,
I’m glad you found the interview helpful and listened to some of her advice. It got me to open my eyes to a whole new world and I realized that I was living in a fantasy land with my goals (or lack thereof).
And I agree with you 100% that our success is limited only by what we truly believe. It’s actually getting to believe that’s the difficult thing….
Paula
So therein lies one of your limiting beliefs… that believing is a difficult thing. It’s actually not — declare your new belief and then start gathering evidence that it is true. Whatever we set out to gather evidence for, we shall find. Warmest, Paula
Steve
You caught me Paula….
I am honestly convinced that we can create anything we want in our lives if we truly believe it. I’m on it…..
Paula
Awesome! I sense that about you. Yes, we need to truly believe it and then align all actions, words and thoughts with it. That’s the exciting part… when all is aligned because then we care less what others think and blaze fabulous new trails. That is how we ‘end the grind’. I’m doing that in my life and it’s truly freeing. Best wishes to you.
Financial Samurai
Love the interview!
She gives some fun advice that should definitely help you and many of us to stop messing around.
You are fortunate you make $65,000 a year. You can make that online in one year pretty easily if you put in 20-30 hrs a week imo.
A lot of us in the Yakezie Network (Yakezie.com) have achieved that income and we just blog part-time. Imagine if you made $250,000/yer and hated your job and wanted to get out?
Thanks for sharing the interview!
Best, Sam
Steve
I don’t know that making $65k a year online is easy. It certainly hasn’t been for me. I don’t have the exact numbers, but I would venture to say that less that 3% of all people who start an online business make less (far less) than 65k.
I do however know it’s possible to make that and much more and I will be one of those people at some point.
I’m definitely interested in hearing about your business and Yakezie. If you have an interest in chatting, shoot me an email at steve@endingthegrind.com.
Thanks
Financial Samurai
Steve,
$65,000 may not be easy, but it is DEFINITELY doable. A lot of us in the Yakezie are making more than $1,000/month in incremental income. And there are 3-4 more who have quit their jobs b/c they are making more than their day jobs. There are a lot of different folks in the Yakezie, which will welcome a new class of Members in January-March, 2012.
We have a Lifestyle vertical you should take a look at. You might just find it something that speaks to you!
Here’s a post that got it all started: http://www.financialsamurai.com/2010/01/20/creating-powerful-friends-the-alexa-ranking-challenge/
Steve
Sam,
I’m definitely going to read up on it. An extra $1,000 per month doing something I enjoy would be awesome! Thanks for the link and I’ll let you know my thoughts.
Rick Wolff
I notice this is your last podcast. Because you let her throw you. I would’ve hung up on this bitch about 2 minutes into her tirade, and thrown the audiofile away. What business is it of anyone’s how much money you make? Office environments require that salaries be kept confidential. Did she want you fired? I’d be grateful for that amount of money in a job.
Fuck her.
Steve
Rick,
Wow. To be honest, my interview with Penelope is not the reason I stopped my interviews. Well, not entirely.
Here are the reasons:
1. Although I was talking with successful people, it didn’t seem that many people were tuning in or benefiting from the advice.
2. I suck at interviewing people.
3. I was losing touch with my readers by posting an interview each week along with a guest post.
I realized that I need to connect with my readers on a deeper level and my plan is to write more authentically and from the heart. Given my goals, I feel like I needed to be the only author on my blog and my interview gave me the push I needed.
If Penelope was a nobody, I would probably have handled the interview differently, but she’s not. She’s a very successful entrepreneur and author. Is she rude? It depends on how you look at it. To some people, she’s a fucking bitch. To others, like me, she seems to be a very direct person with little patience. I’m not saying I like that personality type, but she got her points across.
And I’m so much better for having gone through all of this. I mean, I have 320+ comments from people sharing their stories, advice, and thoughts with me. That’s incredible valuable to me.
And as far as my income, there is no law that states that it be kept confidential. I wasn’t comfortable revealing it, but she was right, how can I build the type of blog/business I want if I can’t even share how much I make…..
Joe
Hi, Steve,
Thanks for your bravery in posting the unedited version.
I definitely empathize with how stunned you must have felt, but, like Marcus Sheridan, I agree with everything she said. I would caution you not to listen to those who would invalidate a reality check with an epithet [like “bitch”, according to Rick Wolff (who?)]
In my view, if all you got out of a year’s work on your blog was this coaching, it would have been well worth it. You kept saying in the interview that you think she was angry, but I heard no anger in her whatsoever — she was frustrated by your pretense. She is dead right that you don’t have a business. You have entitlement, a wordpress install, and a bunch of guest posts by other no-name bloggers who also have little to offer other than their outrage at not being handed a fascinating, highly-remunerative gig that leaves them tons of time off.
As Penelope has pointed out herself, the “Four Hour Workweek” concept is bullshit — Ferriss works like a dog (and appears to need far less human connection than most.)
Penelope is really showing you the way out of the loser dungeon. It’s about how you can contribute, not how offended you are by your current situation. No one cares that your job stinks — they care that THEIR job stinks. If you can help them with THEIR problem, you’ll have their attention, respect and, yes, money.
And the morons who would call her “bitch” will never, ever, EVER rise.
Best wishes to you.
Steve
Joe,
It was a huge eye opener and Marcus’ words definitely helped me see the situation from a different (and better) perspective. I’m not too wrapped up in what others think of Penelope and while I certainly don’t think she is a bitch, she is very direct. I can see how her lack of patience and curt style would have people think she’s a bitch. We get all types though, right? To some, she’s a hero, to others a miserable person. It just depends on how we look at it.
I can’t say how thankful that the interview turned out like it did. It could have easily gone like all my other interview, but nobody gave a shit about those. This was the real deal and people loved it. I was really surprised by it all..
The interview was invaluable to me and I’ve taken her words to heart and completely changed how I look and my business and now, my life.
As far as Tim Ferriss, I love the first half of his book from an inspiration standpoint but don’t find a lot of value in the rest.
I’m not sure I would say I am in a loser dungeon, but I do fee like I have been in a dungeon…
And you’re right, this isn’t about me, it’s about others. That’s why I am doing this. If I wanted to just change my life, I wouldn’t be writing about it.
I think people can see much of themselves in me and that’s the value of this. When people see the huge changes I make and the steps I take to get there, they will become inspired to take action on their own issues.
Joe
Steve, I’ve just reread my message to you and am very embarrassed by its gracelessness. The loser dungeon remark was wrong and incorrect; your bravery in posting the interview makes it clear you have greatness and determination within you.
I think Penelope’s style is incredibly direct, and I think part of it is her Asperger’s. I think in some areas it makes her more fearless (personal exposure, that makes for great writing but carries with it great vulnerability), yet from her blog she is getting no “free lunch” — her life is clearly not easy. As hard as relationships are for non-Aspies, they are 10x harder for her.
I guess Rick’s ‘bitch’ remark set me off — calling an Aspie a bitch is like attacking a blind person for being a bad driver — well, duh. They’re doing the best they can.
Anyway, I DON’T have Asperger’s, so I have no excuse for the bitchiness of my own post. I owe you an apology — you are braver than me, and I wish you well.
EDIT: Just noticed that Kathryn alludes to some of the points I made, so sorry for covering similar ground.
Steve
Joe,
No worries about your comment, but I definitely appreciate the follow up here. TO be honest, I know very little about Asperger’s but understand how it affects her personality and behavior. Calling Penelope a bitch is not cool but everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I can see how some would see her that way.
Thanks again..
Kathryn Kistner
Steve, over the Thanksgiving break, I went to Penelope’s blog and read her recent article on Asperger’s Syndrome (a form of autism), which she has.
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2011/11/22/how-successful-people-deal-with-aspergers/
Also: http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2009/09/30/asperger-syndrome-in-the-office-how-i-deal-with-sensory-integration-dysfunction/
She is INCAPABLE of integrating the social graces that most people learn growing up. She’s completely honest because she doesn’t know how to lie to make her comments socially acceptable.
She lives by rules because she CANNOT tell when something is appropriate for the situation. She has others edit her writing so that she doesn’t share too much. She doesn’t talk, whenever possible, to keep herself out of (social) trouble.
This insight into how she interacts might remove the “bitch” label from her personality since she is INCAPABLE of doing anything else about it; she already has her rules in place.
Her high value to all of us is her honesty. Maybe we could embrace that trait more fully, and become more highly valued, too.
Steve
Kathryn,
I appreciate the info. I actually didn’t have any idea about this. I have never accused her of being a bitch, although that has certainly been thrown out there. She is clearly a no bullshit type personality and ultra direct. I was shocked by her tone during the interview, but have come to see how her personality is.
I loved her honesty and without it, might be doing the same things I was before.
And I do think she cares about people and honestly wants to help others and has been gracious to me since our interview…
Kevin Wells
Steve, that was one hell of a drubbing you got from Penelope.
Full marks first of all for publishing that podcast on your site. You could have easily just hid it under the carpet.
OK, Penelope took over the house and went for the jugular. Not quite the etiquette of a guest. I notice she also steamrollered over you whenever you even just tried to open your mouth to respond.
But the message here is much more important than the etiquette. I agree that that was in effect one great coaching session you got there from Penelope – and for free!
The points she makes I think apply to many people. They certainly applied to me over a year ago when I quit my job and started blogging. I wish I could have heard that podcast back then.
The fact is online media is dangerously deceptive. Blogging is also a big time suck and can make you feel you’re making progress when in fact, you’re not. Traffic alone should not be the goal. Its easy for bloggers to forget this.
It depends of course what you want. If you want to be a blogger, then thats fine, and traffic is fine. But if you want to do more with your traffic and with the web, then you need to get out of blogging. It shouldnt be your business.
I set up my blog BreakingOut.NET to accompany me on my web entrepreneur journey, and I enjoy blogging on it.
But it’s not my business. It’s just a blog on something that interests me.
You can also use blogging to help promote a business and I do that for my own online business.
I think it’s true what she says about your goals not being clear. You mention a lot on your site about how you hate your job and want to quit. Its interesting, its amusing and I empathize with that.
I started off much the same way with my blogging site, because the memory of my corporate cubicle horror was still strong at the time.
There are a lot of people who blog about “Gee, how I hate my job”.. but they don’t do anything much about it. They are still sitting there a year later – and still blogging about how they hate their job.
Its important to think in positive terms about the *alternative* that you are creating. And I dont mean a blog.
I find a good way to avoid the trap of the internet is to think of your business idea *outside* the context of a website. Think of the business as existing without having a website. Will it still be viable. Of course, if its some kind of web app you are going to be selling then thats not possible, but I dont mean it in that sense.
What I mean is, dont get stuck thinking about your business in terms of a website. Because a website (or a blog) is not a business as such. Its just a website. Which is just a means of promotion.
The business is what actually sits behind the website.
But I think it’s time that you switched away from blogging about that and talked about the positive alternatives. And began taking real action to quit your job and start something else in its place. Make this your New Year Resolution!
Steve
Kevin,
Yes, I did get me ass handed to me big time! I wasn’t sure if she was pissed at me or just crazy but in hindsight, she was just being Penelope. And it was one hell of a great lesson. I would still be doing the same shit I was 6 months ago if it weren’t for the interview.
For along time, I thought I would just keep on blogging and something would click and I would start making money. I never thought about the actual marketing and sales aspect of earning income online. I see things much differently now and am not doing this any longer as a way out of my job. I am blogging now to share my journey publicly and create a better life for myself. That’s what my upcoming project is all about.
If income starts coming in, then great. But it’s not the goal. Who knows what will happen after 2012 and my project is finished. Maybe Seth Godin will call me and ask me to do a JV with him (sweet!). Maybe I will write a book. Maybe I will have inspired thousands of people and start a life coaching business.
The point is that I am not focusing on the money, but rather on becoming a better and happier person and want as many people as possible to read and think “if he can do it, so can I”.
And yes, I am rebranding this blog to become positive and start focusing on what we can do instead of what we don’t want to do..
Julie Cottin
Amazing! Penelope was “spot on” with her interview and her “brutal honesty” got the point across! How many times have you heard- “you need to set goals, determine your passion and will someone pay you for that service or product”? Penelope was the first to point out, without sugar coating, that you and many others have no clue (including me).
Your response to Jack: I should have engaged with her more and dug deeper” shows you still do not get it. There is nowhere else to dig, until you are able to answer the questions she asked. Only you can figure out what your plan is.
Spending time with your family and making money are end results from taking action. Goals are measurable actions. You said you have/had goals, yet you could not come up with one that related to a sustainable career. Your responses keep flip-flopping…I have goals, I don’t have goals. In one response you admitted, you really do not have any idea what you really want to do. There has to be a plan and SMART goals.
A huge following only comes after you provide worthwhile content or entertain people. What product or service can you provide that someone is willing to pay for? This is a slippery slope, recommend or provide a bad product, you can lose the followers that you are counting on to provide payment. You are not alone in your struggles.
You keep mentioning Penelope’s comment “knowing me better than I know myself.” Steve, yes she did know you, at least in the “area” that mattered during the conversation. She was able to pick up on the lack of a plan, could see through your excuses and “whining”. Ouch! Don’t get me wrong, I am in the same boat. I have listened to every podcast you have posted and realize we are both asking questions no one can provide the answer to. People can provide suggestions, help lead us down the path, and explain what worked for them but only the individual person can figure out what drives them and what works best for them. Until we can answer our own questions, the search or “unknown” will continue.
There is one other suggestion on improving your presentation. You consistently mention two items that drives me crazy:
1) Hating your job and working for someone else. No one is holding a gun to your head forcing you to work. There are thousands of people who would love the opportunity to work no matter how “unpleasant” the job is. Being grateful for the job you have, atleast until you figure out what is next would be a more positive spin. You maybe better suited in a different position until you can figure out what that is or find something else- I suggest changing the spin. Besides you can learn a lot from working in a position you are not fond of.
2) You have mentioned many times “your wife doesn’t work”. Your wife works, she just does not bring in additional income. A stay at home mom, domestic slave, or whatever name you place on a parent who does not have a “second” job that provides income is probably the most under-rated and short-lived careers around. No matter how “good” she does her job, she will not get promoted or get a raise. She will likely increase her workload and then have her job responsibilities decrease as the years pass.
Thank you for sharing the interview, it did help me see myself and changes I need to make. Best wishes.
Steve
Julie,
Wow, this is a great comment!
Yes, Penelope picked up on my lack of clarity and wishy washiness and I was totally unprepared for that conversation. The reason I felt like I wanted to dig deeper was that had I known the direction of the conversation, I would have asked better questions or been able to respond better. Some of the areas we spoke about, I do feel like I was misjudged, but in hindsight, it turned out for the best. I got incredibly valuable advice and it helped me realize the change I needed to make-on myself and on this blog.
One of the reasons I haven’t released a product is that I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I have said many times that I will not add to the “noise” of the Internet and add another product that isn’t massively valuable. I don’t know what will happen with this blog over the next year. I am doing something much different here starting on Jan 2 and will not be focusing on earning income.
As far as the 2 issues:
1. I realize that I am choosing to work in a toxic environment and have allowed my excuses to keep me from quitting. At this point, I plan to continue to work there for at least another year and have in fact changed my attitude towards my boss and job. I’ve been focusing on the positives each day and have actually built a much better relationship with my boss over the past month.
2. I fully agree that a stay at home mom is a job. My choice of words are poor, but I truly know how hard it is. My oldest daughter has Sensory Integration Dysfunction and she is a huge handful! My wife is doing her best to keep the house running smoothly and is doing a great job. If I had to do it, I’m not sure I could handle it in the long-term. I have a lot of respect for stay at home mothers and I can say with all honesty, it’s much harder than my job…
Thanks for your thoughts here 🙂
Kevin Wells
I agree with Julie Cottin here.
you continually mention how you hate your job and all the aspect of it – the commute, the cubicle, the boss, the co-workers, the work itself.
I also notice how a lot of your site is about other people who also hate their job.
But Ive been there and done that. I think your site is interesting and you have ability to create content, but that’s not what I want to hear about.
I quit all that myself over a year ago. Admittedly I wasnt actually a salaried employee as such, I was a self employed contractor so I was half way there anyway. But Im not interested in people who hate their 9-5 jobs. I want to know about people who have quit that and who are doing something else. I want to know what they are doing and how they do it.
Also you say in response to Julie’s comment: Im going to stay in my job at least another year. Key word: “at least”.
So there we are.
There doesnt seem to be any real commitment from you Steve to quit. You want to coast along blogging about hating the 9-5 and others who also hate the 9-5 and at most, writing about other people who have quit the 9-5.
You need to decide what you really want. Do you want to stay in your 9-5, do you want to start a business using the web, or do you want to be a writer?
There are no right or wrong answers, it’s entirely a matter for you and it’s important to select the answer that suits you best. But you need to face this question!
Steve
Kevin,
When I started this blog, it was all about my job. I have disliked my job/field for many years and my initial idea was to build an online business around my journey from corporate stooge to online entrepreneur. Well, a great deal has happened since then and I have changed my priorities and outlook on things since.
I’m rebranding this blog to be positive and to focus on creating a better and happier life instead of talking about shitty jobs.
I’ve come to terms with staying in my job for the next year while my project unfolds and there are actually some positive changes happening with my job soon. I’ve begun to look at my job in a different light and have been focusing on the good versus how much I hate it. It’s amazing how much better things seem when I am thinking positively. For years, I’ve walked into my office in a bad mood, knowing that I would be miserable all day. It has put enormous stress on me and my marriage and I’ve done a lot of damage.
In all honesty, I know that I will quit but am not committed to quitting at a specified time. The reason is that I focusing on many different areas of my life and making significant changes in them. I honestly believe that I will someday have an online business that will sustain my lifestyle, but am content not having a specific plan to quit. Like I said, many things have changed for me in the last 3 months or so and I am taking on bigger issues than just my job.
Justin
Wow, Steve…busy sharing this with everyone I care about online right now.
It was great to hear a podcast where the host and guest weren’t too busy gushing over each other to put out good information. So many interviews turn into pitch-fests…was fantastic and refreshing to hear something different.
I don’t know your blog or your business so it’s hard for me to state whether I think she’s right or not…but in listening to the interview I think she had you mostly right. While she did come off as rude in the interview, her approach was immensely more useful to you and your readers than it otherwise might have been. You’re right…I didn’t want to hear anything else from the two of you after the discussion…anything else would have paled in comparison.
What I’d REALLY like to see is a follow up with her 9-12 months down the road. Would you have better answers? Would you better understand what it is you want to do with your “8 hours a day”? It seems the conversation was stuck there…I’d really like to see more between the two of you once you’ve figured that out.
I’ve read Penelope’s blog a bit over the years…she is an amazing writer.
Steve
Thanks Justin,
I found myself falling into the interview trap of asking the same questions over and over and getting the same answers for the most part. This interview was a huge wake up call for me and for so many others. She was pretty accurate in her assumptions and although I didn’t agree with everything she said, most of it was spot on.
Given the new direction of my blog, I do plan on having a follow up conversation with her and delving back into what we got into back in September. And I agree wholeheartedly, Penelope is an amazing writer. She has a realness factor that is very rare online…
SouthernBelle
Now if you really want to increase traffic to your site, put this interview on YouTube. Because this was the funny thing I heard all day. Good luck with your blog.
Steve
This wasn’t actually meant to be a comedy piece, but if it works for you, then good!
Evan
Well, Penelope is right that she is not a people person.
There are good coaches, psychotherapists, even shrinks, who are good writers too. Penelope is right in the sense that they spend the majority of their time doing one or the other.
I do think this was an excellent interview in the sense that many people will love the exchange.
I think you could have been guided to assess your priorities and commitments in a gentler way. Perhaps that is my prejudice.
If you succeeded in processing the call and benefiting from it, congratulations.
KC
Agree with Penelope. Reading through the comments I found that you wrote: “My net salary is $52,000/year. My mortgage is $24,000/year. This leaves $28k.” OMG!!! That right there is why you’re stuck in your J.O.B. Your income is all house!
I was full time self employed as a writer for two years before going nearly insane and wanting to get out of the house. I found a part time job. Being self employed has its perks, but so does having the benefits and security that a job offers. The grass is always greener across the street.
Don’t get huge mortgages people! Houses are balls and chains. That’s another good piece of Penelope advice: Own a small house, not a big one (paraphrased).
Thanks for posting the call…very insightful. I learned a lot about myself listening to this.
Steve
KC,
My mortgage does eat up a huge chink of my salary and it’s killing us! The thing is we didn’t buy a big or expensive house. It’s actually quite small. I just happen not to make a lot of money and stretching $28k over a year with 2 children and a wife who stays home is not easy!
Glad you found some usefulness in this…
Suzy Weiss @ Dating Coach For Women Over 40
Steve,
Steve,
‘Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow’ -Steve Jobs’s last words
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/technology/steve-jobss-last-words-oh-wow-oh-wow-oh-wow/2011/10/31/gIQA3vKCZM_story.html
‘Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow’
Were also the words rolling out of my mouth listening to the interview.
Like many of the commenters here, I think that Ms P was spot on.
Now, here’s the kicker…
During the course of this interview, I was squirming in my chair…
NOT for you… but for myself.
Besause this raw, dramatic, honest (on P’s part) and powerful exchange was hitting me right between my eyes and calling me out on my bullshit.
By the way, that could be a whole nother blog post asking your readers to listen to the interview and then come ‘clean’ with their bullshit.
‘Oh wow. Oh wow. Oh wow’
Happy New Year!
Suzy Weiss
Dating Coach For Women Over 40
Dave
Huh. I’m glad I stumbled unto this. She’s mean. She hit me right in the balls too.
She’s right. I do have a blog mainly for “escape” purposes only.
So here’s the million dollar question: If making a blog, driving traffic to it — won’t earn us money… How the hell do we earn a living through the Internet?
Evan
Hi Dave, I don’t know what Steve thinks. I think there are three ways to make money from a blog:
advertising (selling the audience)
selling other peoples’ stuff (affiliate)
selling your own stuff
Building a blog so that people know like and trust you can benefit any or all of them I think.
Steve
Dave,
I don’t think she’s mean but she is VERY direct. As far as your question, there are a thousand possibilities for earning income online. The big question really is what you want to do.
Are you trying to earn income with your site? Are you ideally trying to do this full-time?
Dave
Steve,
Yes, I am ideally trying to do this full-time. I thought it would be as easy as writing 3 posts a day and building traffic, put ads — and money will flow (naive me)
I welcome her being mean. It was a nice spank in the ass for me 🙂 It’s a nice wake up call. I really should start planing (as in today) how I will earn a living out of this.
Again, I’m glad I stumbled unto this. Thanks for posting.
Evan,
Thanks! – but is advertising enough to make a living? I hate selling stuff to people 🙂
Steve
Dave,
This is far from easy! If I were you, I would spend more time figuring out what you really want to do online and then determine the best way to profit from it. Like I mentioned, I had no plan for a year and while I had good traffic and engagement, I had no way to make money…
Like Evan said, you need a huge amount of traffic to make any kind of significant income. Your best best is to provide massive value to your readers and find out what they want. Ask them and they will tell you. Then given them what they want.
KC
I commented earlier on your mortage and mentioned Penelope’s advice about living below your means so that you do not end up “stuck” in your job. I found the actual post that I was thinking of and just thought I would share a link.
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2007/03/19/my-financial-history-and-stop-whining-about-your-job/
PS. I feel called out on my BS too!
Steve
Thanks for the link KC!
And I’m glad the interview “spoke” to you as well!
Evan
To make money from advertising takes huge traffic.
Bonnie Stinson
Wow, man, what an intense conversation. Great job sticking in there for the whole thing. I really respect Penelope Trunk and I respect you as well for giving and taking that advice.
It’s hard to be shaken up like that, and I appreciate that you shared this interview with the public.
Good luck with whatever you’re working on.
Steve
Thanks Bonnie. It was pretty crazy and I was left a bit shell shocked after the call ended. It’s been great because so many people have learned something about themselves from this interview. I can only hope for another great conversation in our follow up interview…
Nigel
Dude she grill your ass, but she’s right in some aspects. I don’t totally agree with everything Penelope says but he calls a spade a spade I’ll give her that.
Really enjoyed the podcast
Nigel:)
Steve
Nigel,
She did give me an ass whupping for sure. I was shell shocked afterwards and had to call a buddy to make sure she wasn’t crazy!
Thanks for taking the time to listen to it..
Raj
I don’t know if anyone else has had this problem but the audio is not right! I can hear Steve asking the questions but I cannot hear anything that Penelope is saying!!
Has the interview been edited or something?
Steve
Raj,
I heard this only once before. I’ve double checked the audio and it’s fine. Have you tried an alternate set of speakers?
D
I just found this post linked from Penelope’s blog. Congrats for having the bravery to post this. A couple thoughts:
1. She’s right that you have to be willing to be vulnerable to develop and intimate connection with your readers. But more than anything, that just means you have to be willing to tell the truth.
As strange as it may seem, Tucker Max is IMO a good example of this. Many think he’s a narcissistic blow hard, but he also tells the truth. He cares about nothing more than getting wasted and getting laid, and that’s not something most people will admit. Ergo, it’s attractive.
2. That doesn’t mean you have to expose everything. There are lots of successful bloggers whose truth is that they’re passionate about politics, or business or economics But they’re really, really, *really* passionate about it. Andrew Sullivan would rather die than not have an opinion about the election. So that’s what he writes about, with a little bit of personal stuff thrown in (but not even 10% of what Penelope does).
3. She’s also right that you have to find what it is you like doing for eight hours every day. For me that’s mostly programming with a little bit of writing and email with customers. I can add a lot of value with programming, some value with supporting customers, and almost none with writing. Sometimes I dont’ allocate my time well, but I know where I should focus (and mostly enjoy the focus)
Ella
You might not be able to “do it justice” but those of us who aren’t hearing and/or who are very busy would appreciate an attempt.
Steve
Not sure what you mean, Ella. What specifically are you referring to?
Sebastian Aiden Daniels
I’m so glad I listened to this. She tore you a new asshole. It seems like you learned a lot from it. I saw that it was 3 years ago so that is good that you are still here. She was right in her assessment of you at that time. It was insightful and entertaining to listen to the conversation. She knows what she is talking about.
Steve
Sebastian,
Thanks for listening. I actually left blogging for a few years and only recently returned. I am actually getting to release an eBook about the lessons I learned from this interview. Let me know if you want a copy..
Sebastian Aiden Daniels
Oh wow. Sure I would love one. Thanks. Let me know how I can get it.
Steve
Let me put the finishing touches on it and I’ll email you a copy..
Patricia
This is wonderful. This was so helpful to me. I am only just this year starting to understand what Penelope talks about when she says, “If you want her job, you have to want her life.” The goal thing has also become crystal clear. I’ve always been great at making things happen in my life and switching tracks whenever I need to, but it’s only recently that I understand the need to focus on the kind of life I want, the kind of work that I want to do, what my ‘why’ is for doing that work (not money obviously), and then to make every decision I make every day align with that goal. Thank you so much for sharing this exactly as it was recorded :))
Steve
Hi Patricia,
I’m glad to hear that this is still inspiring people a few years later 🙂
It sounds like you are in a much better spot that I was when this interview took place. Obviously I lacked clarity and goals but have come a long way since.
Good luck in your journey and I hope you continue on the path that’s best for you.
By the way, did you download my free ebook, which is about this interview?
Patricia
Thank you Steve. I did, yes. Haven’t read it yet, but I will 😉
I’m glad this all worked out for you too. I felt bad for you at one point lol, but honestly, I wish someone had bashed me over the head like that 20 years ago!
Best wishes to you 🙂
Jennifer
I think there are a lot of people curled up in a fetal position rocking back and forth after listening to that!!! May Penelope’s kick ripple through all us who are lost, aimlessly wandering through life without an honest goal. My main goal now is to come clean with myself and discover my real dreams. Awesome post!! Thanks so much for sharing.
Steve
LOL Jennifer. That’s not the first time I’ve heard that 🙂
Yes, it was brutal but I so needed to hear it.
Kate
I am so glad I decided to listen to your interview with Penelope today – it has instantly changed my attitude to my working life… Thank you for being brave enough to share.
Steve
That’s great to hear, Kate! I wouldn’t say that I’m brave and my hope was that it helped as many people as possible.
Simone Sonia
I LOVE HER. She reminds me of my life in NY where I was such a goody two shoes I had to figure out how to respond to people like Penelope in a way that still felt positive like I like to be. I’m pretty impatient too so I can totally relate to both sides of this convo. Then I married a very, very proper man who can’t tell me being intensely interested in our conversation vs me being angry. #PaybackIsAB The whole interview is awesome! I’m a writer w extrovert skills and a lot of time but I would need a nom de plume. Maybe that would help you. 🙂 Start anonymous and then when it is successful you can be you. 🙂
Truth Hurts
This was so damn real and I really needed to hear this right now. Thank you for keeping this up. Sharing asap.
Steve
It was an a-ha moment for me and I’m glad it’s still helping others!!
X
A phone call from Penelope Trunk and me (former client)
So the call started like this:
Me: Hey Penelope, how’s it going?
Her: Hi. So what do want to talk about?
Me: Well, I want to make more money.
Her: How are planning on accomplishing this?
Me: For the past couple of months, I’ve been wanting to get into Investment banking.
Her: You can’t get into Investment banking. Have you ever thought that you might not be an ENTJ.
An ENTJ is one of the 16 myers briggs personality. Well, I took the test 5 times. So yes, but that bitch knows more than 16personalities.com
Me: Well, how can I make more money?
Her: Have you thought of selling drugs or start a male prostitution ring?
Me: I did do illegal activities to get by but I stopped.
Her: Why did you?
Me: I want to become a millionaire and be in history books.
Her: You are not going to become rich.
Me: Why do you say that?
Her: Because millionaires have vision and you don’t have one.
Me: I have a vision, and one day I’ll be like John Rockefeller.
Her: You don’t have a vision and the only reason people write about rich people is because of their charitable work.
Me: Well, I do have skills.
Her: You don’t have a vision and it sounds like you aren’t even a good sales person.
Me: I’ve been told that I’m very good at sales.
Her: You are not good at marketing.
Me: One of the things I want to do is teach picking-up girls.
Her: Huh? So you don’t want to make money? Who’s going to buy into that?
Me: Many people will.
Her: What do you want to talk about? I feel like I’m wasting my time.
Me: Well why don’t you help me with my resume to become an investment banker?
Her: You can’t be an investment banker, that process starts when you are 18.
Me: There have been many people that joined investment banking in their late 20s.
Her: What do you really want? You aren’t good at marketing by the way.
Me: Now that you mentioned it, there is something I want right now…Yes, and it’s close by too…hanged up on the bitch.
It’s funny because in the pdf she sent me it said, “Know your dream job.” Then, she gives me this limiting belief about “can’t do it.” Then, Warren Buffett doesn’t appear to be the richest man in the world for charity…The fuck is she thinking.
Steve
That’s fucked up, dude..
Debs
Steve–Penelope told you some hard truths. Get a goal with specific tasks, specific work that you are really want to do. You sound a bit wishy-washy in your responses to her. Get serious about your life goal. Or, admit that you are fine with keeping your life the way it is. I vote that you get major career counseling. She is not misjudging you.
Steve
Thanks for taking the time to write and I completely agree; she did me a huge favor. However, that interview was in 2011 and my life has turned around 180 degrees and things are going very well for me personally and professionally.
Diane
I’m very late to this article, but I just want to state here that Penelope Trunk has never revealed her true income on her blog. She talks about spending 50K a year on a house manager, and 15K on a stove, etc.. etc.. But she’s never flat out stated where her actual income comes from. She’s a skilled marketer and writer, but he articles seem to suggest she is in debt. Her real income source is her consulting fees from her readers @ $350 an hour. Google reviews of her consulting services, and they aren’t all that great.
She lived rent free at the farm, and now that she’s divorced, she is living in an apartment. Her life suggests poor money management skills. So I would say that although she gave some great advice about you needing to clarify your goals, she herself is not transparent about her business or her finances.